A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists • Hacker News Board

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#441

Post by cgriswald » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #431

cgriswald wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't. In the United States, bicyclists must follow largely the same rules of the road that drivers of motor vehicles must follow. They can even be ticketed for violating those rules although usually the tickets don't have much in the way of teeth (except things like DUI while biking). Here in the Bay Area, it's a rare bicyclist that actually follows the rules. Talking to other bicyclists, I've found a large number…

Forcing bicycles to follow rules designed for cars is often silly and sometimes actively dangerous. For example, the bike route from downtown to my house involves making a left turn on a busy street. For a mile and a half, the street is nice and wide, with generous bike lanes in both directions - sensible and safe. But the moment I have to turn left? By car laws , I need to stop in the middle of the road, with traffi…

Your u-turn sounds legal, even in a car, but I'd have to see the area and know the state to be sure. Regardless, bicyclists are already required to follow the law. Having a required license would simply help make sure bicyclists are aware of the law and provide a tool for law enforcement to keep the most egregious offenders (e.g. stop sign runners, cyclists traveling against traffic, etc.) from causing problems.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#442

Post by NLips » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

vvillena wrote: post #416

pafje wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever the speed limit, you should never go 90 km/h in a blind turn if it is too fast to avoid a cyclist. You're the one responsible as long as cyclists are allowed on the road (and for good reason). For example, on the tiny winding mountain roads of Corsica, the speed limit is generally 90 km/h but it would be crazy for a non-local to go more than 50 or 60 km/h (if only because of the random encounters with wild b…

> Whatever the speed limit, you should never go 90 km/h in a blind turn if it is too fast to avoid a cyclist. I suppose it depends on the country, but usually roads mandate minimum speeds (tipically half the max speed) in order to avoid issues like this. Anything lower than the minimum speed should be treated like a static obstacle, so maximum speed should always take into account unexpected hazards. Given that cycli…

Which countries have minimum speed limits? Not the US or UK to my knowledge?

(Yes, there are plenty of other countries, but those seem to be the two most discussed here)

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#443

Post by papermule » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

cornyNetHandle wrote: post #427

papermule wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think the issue is that unlike the pavement, the roads are much more stringently regulated with sign posts, markings and lights. For as long as cyclists have to cycle on the roads as we know them a cyclist should be required to demonstrate that they understand the signs and rules of the road. That could be by presenting their official drivers license, or, should they not have one, be required to take a theory…

I walk on the road all the time, having grown up in an area with plenty of rural roads without pavements. I would get into a ton of shit should I visit anywhere that had jaywalking laws, though in the places they exist and are enforced, they presumably get by without a dedicated licensing and testing regime.

Dude, you're missing the point. You do not walk on the road the same way a cyclist cycles on the road. You do not walk up to T junctions, indicate with your arms and turn left. You neither come to a set of traffic lights in the same way. Cyclists have to do all these things.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#444

Post by papermule » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

brewdad wrote: post #437

papermule wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many more rules that just red, yellow green and the stop sign. It would be nice if the highway code was that simple though. For example, how to navigate a busy multi-lane roundabout safely as a cyclist, such as Old Street roundabout in London, which looks like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Old_Stre... , or this roundabout in Bristol, UK: http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B2NMCH/aerial-vie…

Driver or cyclist, if you fail to navigate that intersection safely and correctly you will be cited (or injured or killed). How does requiring a license for cyclists solve this problem? You mentioned that driving without a license will get you arrested. This is true, but only after you've committed a violation, unless your country has random driver's license checkpoints (mine doesn't). We can already cite cyclists fo…

> How does requiring a license for cyclists solve this problem?

Well, would you argue that requiring a license for motor vehicles is unnecessary? The benefits should be similar and identifiable.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#445

Post by cgriswald » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

ovao wrote: post #117

cmurf wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans don't do yield signs very well except in the most obvious situations that shouldn't even need yield signs, like highway on ramps, and intersections with islands creating curved right turn lanes. Americans barely have competency at four way stops, the main way who goes next is figured out is someone launching from a rolling stop before the others. There's also often hand waiving, honking, and lights flashing…

I’ve personally rarely encountered issues with yielding. Four-way stops are another issue, and any driver in the U.S. has probably encountered them, but they’re solveable issues with basic driver courtesy. They assume basic understanding and cognizance to prevent incidents, but nothing more is strictly required. The greatest number of accidents I’ve seen have been at stop lights rather than stop signs, weirdly. Drive…

I encounter problems with yielding nearly every day, but I think it has more to do with road design. The yield is on a very long acceleration ramp and it is placed towards the front of the ramp. Then there is a merge sign near the end of the ramp.

I think the idea is that you should yield and only go when it is clear. But because of the length of the ramp, I think they are legally required to have a merge sign there. Invariably people fail to yield, and, since it is uphill, 'merge' into 45 mph traffic at 20 mph. And by merge I mean they just drive on and expect people to stay out of their way.

I have way more problems with people turning on red at the worst possible moment (despite lots of previous safe opportunities) than I do with yield signs though. But I don't doubt the GP's experience either. Drivers are very different in different states and regions of the U.S.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#446

Post by talldan » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

u801e wrote: post #408

talldan wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. There are similar rules over here about leaving a gap to the kerb, and that there should also be a gap left by overtaking vehicles. Both are often not observed. Here's the (brief) rules for roundabouts: http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/rules-for-cyclists-roundabout... Most cycling proficiency courses here in the UK will tell cyclists to ride more centrally when in a narrow lane, which is good advice…

> It gets a bit fuzzy though when there's a cycle lane provided. A lot of times, the cycle lane is really too narrow to safely ride in. It really ought to be a minimum of 4 feet wide (allowing a 1 foot space on each side of the cyclist if they're centered in the lane. Some that I've seen aren't even as wide as the handlebars on the bike. Where I live, a cyclist isn't required to use the cycle lane even if one is pres…

You don't have to use a cycle lane here, but there have been cases in recent years where police have incorrectly stopped/charged someone for not using a cycle lane.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#447

Post by dabbledash » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

chimprich wrote: post #354

papermule wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Others road users must have one. ---- It's a shame I'm getting downvoted, but the current state of affairs is that in cities like London bicycles, cars and trucks will be sharing the road for the near-mid future. I'd rather not have trucks or cars in the city, and ideally cyclists would have their own road separate from cars and pedestrians, but I think that'…

> Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Thought experiment: if you didn't have any motorised vehicles on the road, would you still want cyclists to have a licence? In a general case though, requiring cyclists to have a licence would reduce the number of cyclists, probably significantly. This would correspondingly increase the number of motorists. This dual effect would have a number of negative i…

>Thought experiment: if you didn't have any motorised vehicles on the road, would you still want cyclists to have a licence?

No. Why do you think this is relevant? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the rest of your argument.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#448

Post by Retric » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

bialpio wrote: post #215

Dylan16807 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't drop to walking speed, it's not a rolling stop, it's flat-out running the stop sign. I think we can agree that 4mph is not high speed.

I always found it hard to understand what's so difficult in actually stopping when the sign clearly says "stop". The wording hardly leaves any room for misinterpretation, doesn't it?

Many stop signs are placed such that stopping for them prevents you from safely observing oncoming traffic. So after stopping at a stop sign you still need to slowly inch forward checking that the path is clear making the stopping portion of the exercise absolutely pointless.

Further my habit of actually stopping has gotten me rear ended and tossed into an intersection. Doing things unexpected can be very hazardous.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#449

Post by dabbledash » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #431

cgriswald wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't. In the United States, bicyclists must follow largely the same rules of the road that drivers of motor vehicles must follow. They can even be ticketed for violating those rules although usually the tickets don't have much in the way of teeth (except things like DUI while biking). Here in the Bay Area, it's a rare bicyclist that actually follows the rules. Talking to other bicyclists, I've found a large number…

Forcing bicycles to follow rules designed for cars is often silly and sometimes actively dangerous. For example, the bike route from downtown to my house involves making a left turn on a busy street. For a mile and a half, the street is nice and wide, with generous bike lanes in both directions - sensible and safe. But the moment I have to turn left? By car laws , I need to stop in the middle of the road, with traffi…

That u-turn sounds legal for everybody.

I think one the purposes of traffic law is to make the behavior of all participants predictable. My only issue with cyclists is I feel I can never predict what they're going to do.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#450

Post by tahw » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

I understand the geometry in this situation and its impact, but if you're on a bicycle and you don't come to a complete stop at an intersection with potentially 40mph cross-traffic, you're going to have a bad time no matter what the angle is.