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Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

nytimes.com

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Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#441

Post by Spivak »

clavalle wrote: post #388
GreaterFool wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of the memo didn't argue that the male-female ratio is where it should be. It is almost certainly skewed due to gender biases. However, eliminating gender biases from recruitment is not necessarily the same as forced diversity (forced due to ideology that dictates that anything different than 50-50 is immoral). If Google were to announce that they will hire 50% women wouldn't that be illegal under Title VI…

I don't think anyone is saying anything different from 50-50 is immoral but that anything different (in this case vastly different) than 50-50 deserves some attention. I don't think announcing a policy of hiring 50% women is necessary. Like you said, it is 'almost certainly skewed due to gender biases' so the obvious way forward is to try to track down those biases and remove them from the process. There is also some…

> anything different than 50-50 deserves some attention.

If what these researchers are saying about preferences is true you should be more suspicious of an exact 50-50 split than any other because it suggests that people are pulling the strings behind the scenes to make it so.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#442

Post by pharrington »

KirinDave wrote: post #432
pharrington wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you haven't done it in this thread, I checked your comment history to see what you have said about the memo itself. The only thing I could find that begins to be a direct reference is "In this memo's case, perhaps you're mad at someone for saying you're genetically predisposed to be less capable of individual action (e.g., don't worry I am sure if we set up pair programming that will make it fair for you social…

> or misunderstand a given piece of material. It is not OK to dismiss out of hand perceived others or to take an emotionally vested interest in your misunderstanding when it's been pointed out. I'm uninterested in James, his feelings, his emotions, his needs, his wants, his _intents_, and his plans. I've met him in passing, and he did not hold my attention anymore in person. I've been much more focused on the flaws i…

I have no general posting strategy. I just respond to what I see. My opinion of the overall HN community is that there are alot of people on here with a wide range of knowledge and opinions, the vast majority of which I find informative or interesting. I disagree with alot of things people write here, but very rarely is that because I find the opinion I'm disagreeing with to be extremely irrational.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#443

Post by Spivak »

trhway wrote: post #340
peoplewindow wrote: post #77

I am minded to agree. And that's a shame, because Pichai has done good things for Chrome and Android when he was leading those. The article doesn't really touch on Pichai's biggest mistakes here. Mistake one: Damore's memo alleged discrimination, both against men and conservatives. Gender and political affiliation are both protected classes in California and they just fired him for whistleblowing. He has now filed a…

>discrimination, both against men and conservatives. while men is [at least nominally] protected class, being a conservative isn't. >Google is extremely hostile to conservatives. can't applaud enough to Google here. According to the well known court decisions, a corporation is, like a person, entitled to have its own political opinion and actions, and it is the time somebody would answer to conservatives in kind. Con…

> can't applaud enough to Google here

Just to be sure here, you would be fine with Google being hostile, like creating an uncomfortable work environment for, members of the LGBT community, environmentalists, pet owners, vegetarians, Buddhists, pro-choice members, PHP programmers, truck owners, under-roll toilet paper users, tort reform advocates, accountants, FSF members, IE users, people who want maternity leave, Bears fans, Apple users, Mr. Pibb drinkers, or any of the billion other political issues we interact with daily?

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#444

Post by Spivak »

avs733 wrote: post #210
KirinDave wrote: post #164

And once again, the characterization of "allowing the debate" means one thing for James (why, he "cited studies") and another for everyone else (they are an angry mob). The most telling bias in this piece is that characterization. Perhaps is James had not hamfistedly "cited" population research (as Brooks suggests) but then given very specific personal-level fixes (e.g., pair programming , suggestions of "pipeline" f…

While I agree, I think brook's argument is even more easily dismissable as the BS it is. One of several reasons for citing material on which an argument is based is to trace the flow of knowledge and tie statements to the prior research they interpret. James fundamentally misinterpreted much of the research he cited in ways that are overly summative to make a point he wanted to make. He sought research to give his bi…

Okay, help me out here. People keep saying that he mischaracterized existing research but then we have qualified people in the field saying that he got it right.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/no-the-google-manif...

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#445

Post by Spivak »

whowouldathunk wrote: post #63
olewhalehunter wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former medical tech developer, the problems in healthcare are almost entirely social/political and the healthcare tech business is making things worse in most respects.

New drugs are making things worse? Tell that to my oncologist friends. STEM is more than CRUD apps.

Okay, you know exactly what is meant when people in this forum talk about tech. Being pedantic about the word technology isn't helping this discussion.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#446

Post by Spivak »

whowouldathunk wrote: post #44
EduardoBautista wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make school teachers or nurses any less important or necessary.

If a nursing school made a push for recruiting more male nurses I wouldn't feel like my software engineering career was a wrong choice.

You do know that is exactly what's going on, right? There are plenty of male only scholarships in nursing school and schools put forth considerable effort to assuage the fears that men have entering the field and provide special accommodations and support for them including campaigns to get their co-workers to stop calling them 'male nurses'.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#447

Post by dropstickle »

dahart wrote: post #440
dropstickle wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right. And what I've been trying to say is that the statistical averages aren't the offensive part. That's a straw man. Well you did pose the question, I just answered it, so it was not to erect a straw man, and I was not really trying to contradict the rest of your claim by that example, maybe I should have been clearer on that. > Sure, the memo didn't say it explicitly, but it did imply that. Everyone keeps defen…

I quite appreciate your measured response, thank you for that. > I don't agree with you that science has concluded that biological factors don't play a role in what professions people go into. I don't recall saying nature isn't a factor at all, and if I did I take it back. But I do personally believe that right now nurture, which includes social and historical gender issues plus all forms of implicit and explicit soc…

Social issues is quite a clearly a problem, I just guess we disagree on the degree of biological influence, although there are some interesting points you bring up.

This whole memo thing has certainly led me down the rabbit hole. Not being an actual scientist with insight into both biological and social factors, I find it hard to be to sure of where I stand on the issue, and the current political climate is certainly helping to muddy the waters.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#448

Post by KirinDave »

pharrington wrote: post #442
KirinDave wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or misunderstand a given piece of material. It is not OK to dismiss out of hand perceived others or to take an emotionally vested interest in your misunderstanding when it's been pointed out. I'm uninterested in James, his feelings, his emotions, his needs, his wants, his _intents_, and his plans. I've met him in passing, and he did not hold my attention anymore in person. I've been much more focused on the flaws i…

I have no general posting strategy. I just respond to what I see. My opinion of the overall HN community is that there are alot of people on here with a wide range of knowledge and opinions, the vast majority of which I find informative or interesting. I disagree with alot of things people write here, but very rarely is that because I find the opinion I'm disagreeing with to be extremely irrational.

On the contrary I've been trying to keep to my chosen topic and you've been doing your best to steer the conversation away from what I was talking about and towards me and what you command me to do.

It's boring. Please, stop.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#449

Post by trhway »

Spivak wrote: post #443
trhway wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>discrimination, both against men and conservatives. while men is [at least nominally] protected class, being a conservative isn't. >Google is extremely hostile to conservatives. can't applaud enough to Google here. According to the well known court decisions, a corporation is, like a person, entitled to have its own political opinion and actions, and it is the time somebody would answer to conservatives in kind. Con…

> can't applaud enough to Google here Just to be sure here, you would be fine with Google being hostile , like creating an uncomfortable work environment for, members of the LGBT community, environmentalists, pet owners, vegetarians, Buddhists, pro-choice members, PHP programmers, truck owners, under-roll toilet paper users, tort reform advocates, accountants, FSF members, IE users, people who want maternity leave, B…

you're putting words in my mouth. I said i'm ok with hostility toward conservatives, not all the other groups you listed above. Out of the groups you listed i'd be ok with hostility toward "tort reform advocates" as they seems to be on the conservative side. All the others are either progressive or neutral so they either get my support or i don't care.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#450

Post by whowouldathunk »

Spivak wrote: post #446
whowouldathunk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a nursing school made a push for recruiting more male nurses I wouldn't feel like my software engineering career was a wrong choice.

You do know that is exactly what's going on, right? There are plenty of male only scholarships in nursing school and schools put forth considerable effort to assuage the fears that men have entering the field and provide special accommodations and support for them including campaigns to get their co-workers to stop calling them 'male nurses'.

Yes, and I'm saying I don't see anything wrong with that.
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