Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#441

Post by Bakary » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #355

archgoon wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid that you have misunderstood the Bloomberg article. Nothing in it is about checking the power of the president (it says itself the president determines when to end the meetings and whether to ignore advice). It is all about verifying that The President has issued the order, and then ensuring that order is carried out. The President is contacted in this scenario simply because he's the only one who can actua…

I was just describing the official process. Having spent 14 years in the military I can tell you that it's more complex than just that. The entire point of the US command and control system is to guarantee that the President and only the President is capable of authorizing nuclear war whenever he needs to. Yes, legally and formally. Informally though, as I said, it won't go down like that, especially if it's not comp…

Learning that there only is an "informal" system for nuclear strikes is fairly disconcerting and does not inspire confidence, especially if there are no added details and no available confirmation of what you told us.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#442

Post by AndrewKemendo » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

mdpopescu wrote: post #426

erikpukinskis wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, General AI is science fiction and there's no detailed theory to suggest it is even possible, beyond hand wavy neuron/transistor-count models. All evidence so far suggests a human-like gestation/development is necessary, and such a development would negate any advantage such an AI would have over traditional human cyborgs. Second, what about an AI would give them an advantage over cyborgs in building dro…

> Aren't conventional human cyborgs doing that right now? Yes, it's annoying to me that people who believe AI to be extremely dangerous forget that people themselves can already do all that nasty stuff.

Who isn't assuming that? My whole point was that instead of having to recruit humans to enforce coercion, we can build our own soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines to do it.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#443

Post by Bakary » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

redy wrote: post #299

wwweston wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you're citing appears to support the point it seems like you're trying to contradict -- it describes a system where the president is given explicit authority at every stage. There are opportunities for others to dissuade him, but he has every freedom to disregard them, and they have absolutely nothing in the way of legal power to stop him. The only check currently seems to be people disobeying his orders,…

Mutiny is likely. American officers in particular will tend not to follow orders to commit an obvious war crime. This isn't an extralegal check , it's very much legal. But the system will fail if "the whole chain is stupid." This is why it's so dangerous to have a President obsessed with loyalty.

What makes you think mutiny would be likely? It would depend on many factors such as the psychological makeup of the launch & command staff and the circumstances du jour. No doubt they made sure independent-minded soldiers likely to be unreliable were not placed anywhere near any silo.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#444

Post by Bakary » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

ismarc wrote: post #339

valuearb wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the US military its not illegal to refuse to follow an illegal order. The US Marines have this drilled into them, not sure about the other services.

I can confirm it's drilled into Army soldiers as well, so I'd bet on the air force and navy being the same way.

It's one thing to pledge to this, yet another to actually be in the silo with the alarms blaring and the the orders coming in with seconds to spare. It's impossible to predict in advance how someone would respond to this situation.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#445

Post by lmm » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

Bakary wrote: post #439

lmm wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't answer the question. Who do you give the command authority for that decision? Who gets to say "we cannot contact the headquarters", which amounts to being able to launch the nuclear weapons? And obviously if you want them to be able to launch under those circumstances you have to give them any "launch codes" or what-have-you beforehand.

In the case of the UK, there is a sealed letter in each Trident sub with instructions from the PM in case the nation's leaders have been terminated.

Yeah, I mentioned the letters of last resort, but while the letter will contain orders, the captain has sole launch authority, and it's difficult to imagine the system could work in a way that avoids that - whatever process you require the captain to follow, they could simply decide to follow that process as though the leadership were uncontactable.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#446

Post by gremlinsinc » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

So glad I live in Utah -- where we have X-mission Pete Ashdown is a huge supporter of EFF and Net Neutrality and anti-NSA -- and Google fiber - google's a big supporter as well. Loved X-mission, but new landlord only has google fiber installed so using that, but both had 1GB connections..

Two great ISP's who WON'T be doing shenanigans like comcast/att when net neutrality is destroyed.

Too bad more people in America don't have good choices... I do think though the biggest thing they could do for 'action' --would be every Monday block all comcast/att users from using Google, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Reddit in protest... till the ISPs cry and beg and plead w/ the FCC to re-instate net-neurality.

If it's legal to prioritize websites over others... then it's legal for those same websites to prioritize certain ISPs over others...

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#447

Post by gremlinsinc » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 4:56 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #19

If Google were actually serious about Net Neutrality, they would use their insane market power to protect it. How? Well, a simple statement saying "any ISP who abuses net neutrality will have their customers cut off from Google products". No Google search, no YouTube, no Gmail. Have those requests instead redirect to a website telling the customer what their ISP is doing, why Google won't work with them, and how to c…

I personally think Google/FB/Reddit/etc should block users from ATT/Comcast/Verizon every monday as a sign of protest...

They should be redirected to a page saying - your ISP is against Net Neutrality. Contact them and tell them how you feel about this...or find a new ISP. Your access will be restored on Tuesday. If you don't like this, get used to it-it's the way a net neutrality-less internet works.

Those same ISP's will be begging to bring back net neutrality in a month or two.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#448

Post by mikegerwitz » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 4:59 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #19

If Google were actually serious about Net Neutrality, they would use their insane market power to protect it. How? Well, a simple statement saying "any ISP who abuses net neutrality will have their customers cut off from Google products". No Google search, no YouTube, no Gmail. Have those requests instead redirect to a website telling the customer what their ISP is doing, why Google won't work with them, and how to c…

I strongly support net neutrality, but this is dangerous.

First: this is pushing the onus on the consumers. Not just pushing---forcing, even. My grandmother, my wife even, doesn't care about net neutrality---they want to use the Internet. I've seen suggestions of using a VPN, and I use Tor for all of my Internet traffic, but this is an even _greater_ onus on consumers. It's a far bigger impact than the abolishment of net neutrality itself.

Perhaps more importantly, this is subverting the legal/regulatory system by using your market dominance to essentially declare your own law. The system is failing us (those who support net neutrality, at least) right now, but it's there for a reason, and it's a slippery slope to try to reverse legislative and regulatory decisions by force.

Civil uprising is fine. Campaigns to raise awareness (like the blackout for SOPA), okay. Many other things are okay. But leave innocent people out of the crossfire. They should care, yes, but it's up to _us_ to make change---those of us who understand the issue and why it's important. It's up to us to raise awareness. I'm not going to go hold people hostage over my ideals. What if Google weren't on your side? What if they did _not_ support net neutrality? Would you be okay with them using their dominance to push an agenda you didn't like? I'd think not.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#449

Post by hackerkid » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 5:38 PM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #422

hackerkid wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> free "internet" access to India, where "the internet" is selected websites. Did you confuse India with China?

Nope, https://www.cnet.com/news/why-india-doesnt-want-free-basics/

The free basics plan proposed by Facebook was rejected by the telecom regulatory authority of India due to the protests from people. This was a standadlone incident which happened in 2016. Later 2016 saw the introduction of Jio 4G service provider which began to provide super cheap 4G service for the masses (approx 5$ for 28GB and it was free when it launched) which made other telecoms to drop the prices massively. Apart from some sites which Government has censored I have experienced no major problems with India's Internet. I even traveled from the southern part of India to the northern part in train enjoying uninterrupted 4G Internet earlier this year(Around 2400Km). We are happy how India's ISPs are going and don't have much to complain. Thank you.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#450

Post by pzone » Thu, Jul 13, 2017, 5:46 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #83

jerf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to point out that even if you disagree with this video that hearing it straight from the source is valuable. If you want to convince Ajit Pai that he's wrong, knowing what his current (public) opinion truly is (rather than just someone's strawman) makes it way easier.

Well, if he really believes it. I high doubt most people in these positions believe a fraction of what they say. They're being backed by major telecom firms to promote a narrative.

How about replying to his points directly instead of attacking his motives?