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European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

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Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#441

Post by tripzilch »

philh wrote: post #334
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps obvious was not a good choice. Anyways: I would say Google is as close to a natural monopoly as the Bell System was in 1956. If you came to me and said “Hey, I want to start a company to compete with Google in search,” I would say you’re out of your mind and don’t waste your energy or your time or your money, there’s just no way. Classic economics would say that if there’s a business in which there are 35 per…

I feel like you're describing growth in general, not natural monopolies specifically. There's a high cost to building a store and the more stores you build, the more customers you serve, the more stores you can afford to build. There's a high cost to making a movie and the more movies you make, the more people pay to see your movies, the more movies you can afford to make.

Sure, and growth in general is not always a good thing.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#442

Post by AndrewKemendo »

The larger existential question that this should raise for most people is this:

Do you have more power to improve your life over the long term in your role as an individual consumer or an individual voter?

If you take the stance that the government is looking out for your interests better than Google is, then by default you must be arguing one of two things:

1. Your act of voting (or political action) is positively correlated to your desires.

or

2. The (collective) Government knows what's better for you than Google could and is implementing that to your benefit.

I find either argument unsubstantiated.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#443

Post by tgragnato »

dmix wrote: post #425
tgragnato wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But regardless Google is a monopoly that we can't really do much about. Plenty of people have tried to compete and failed so there will be some consequences of that. The fine is focused on Google Shopping. I'd say the biggest competitors are Amazon and eBay. While I'm unsure if the EU can effectively do something about Google as a search engine monopoly, I'm pretty sure Google can be beaten in the e-commerce sector…

> Step by step, down the giants. Claiming the resolution of the matter in a single step is unrealistic. My concern is that even one step like the fine here will significantly chill their innovation with their search service in every category. As they will see adding any special advanced listings in search results as a big risk of being fined. We're stuck with this giant so I'm not sure why you want to down it when th…

I guess we have very different concepts about innovation. First and foremost the term “service” as posed here seems too broad: in the years Google decided to change and extend what the given service is.

Exploiting your existing user base, in order to get traction for your next service, that in your opinion gives an added value, is not what I’d call innovation. If your new product or service is really innovative, then you don’t need this kind of tricks to get traction, users will come to you (because of the added value your new service gives to them).

The early Google was innovative, and won over the other search engines because of that.

If you are not able to get traction without this, then what you call innovation is not innovative, and you’re overestimating your product. For me (and apparently for the eu commission too), the rest is simple propaganda. Some find comfortable to believe it, probably because it’s profitable for them.

I don’t know what is the climate inside Google, but if this is able to significantly chill their “innovation”, then I think that they’re simply waiting for the next big thing in tech.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#444

Post by Analemma_ »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #442

The larger existential question that this should raise for most people is this: Do you have more power to improve your life over the long term in your role as an individual consumer or an individual voter? If you take the stance that the government is looking out for your interests better than Google is, then by default you must be arguing one of two things: 1. Your act of voting (or political action) is positively c…

I don't see any evidence that my purchasing actions are positivity correlated to my desires either.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#445

Post by AndrewKemendo »

zdkl wrote: post #367
Ajedi32 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it benefit the consumer though? I fail to see how showing links to search results pages from other companies in response to a product query is better for consumers than just showing them a listing of the products they actually searched for. [Google's response][1] to this ruling suggests they have data which confirms this: > While some comparison shopping sites naturally want Google to show them more prominently,…

As a consumer, I have (much) more trust that my interests are advanced by the EU than google. This is an opinion which I don't feel the need to convert anyone to but I really don't understand the opposite view. Can someone explain why they believe google and other "emerging" power centers saveguard their interests better than the EU?

Can someone explain why they believe google and other "emerging" power centers saveguard their interests better than the EU?

1. Because it's in their long term best interest to have a customer for life (No political cycle) so they are more incentivized than a politician would be to support the interest of the consumer.

2. They have a more insight into user desires and actions on a day to day basis, meaning they can predict and "nudge" users in directions that are mutually beneficial.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#446

Post by jolic »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #360
timClicks wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "user experience worse" Not necessarily. I read this as saying that if other players have well marked up content, they should have their listings appear in infoboxes, perhaps alongside Google's. Not that the infoboxes be removed.

Pretty sure that's what Google Product Search used to do. They ended up having to change it because the resulting quality of those listings was terrible. See https://commerce.googleblog.com/2012/05/building-better-shop... Maybe if they tried again they could do better this time; I'm a little skeptical though.

Wow, the screenshot in the post is like a parody. (And that's the "new Google Shopping experience").

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nw0uS-CN17o/T8cd822KTBI/AAAAAAAAA...

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#447

Post by zeteo »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #275

I might be in a minority here and I'll probably get down voted but this result scares me... and I used to be CTO one of those competing price comparison sites that show up lower in the results so if anyone should agree it should be me. While it made me angry when Google put their results above ours, I never questioned that they had a right to do that. It is their website. They are not a utility. At what point does a…

> this result scares me [...] I never questioned that they had a right to do that. It is their website

Are you serious? By this logic Microsoft could do whatever they wanted with Windows. Yes, when you're big enough to absolutely dominate a market you can't just use that to make rules that kick out everyone else.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#448

Post by AsyncAwait »

stickfigure wrote: post #433
zdkl wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consumer, I have (much) more trust that my interests are advanced by the EU than google. This is an opinion which I don't feel the need to convert anyone to but I really don't understand the opposite view. Can someone explain why they believe google and other "emerging" power centers saveguard their interests better than the EU?

As a consumer, I have (much) more trust that my interests are advanced by the EU than google. The same people that brought you that idiotic cookies warning?

Yes, the cookie notices are a bad implementation of a good policy, (informing users that they're being tracked.)

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#449

Post by AndrewKemendo »

Analemma_ wrote: post #444
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #442

The larger existential question that this should raise for most people is this: Do you have more power to improve your life over the long term in your role as an individual consumer or an individual voter? If you take the stance that the government is looking out for your interests better than Google is, then by default you must be arguing one of two things: 1. Your act of voting (or political action) is positively c…

I don't see any evidence that my purchasing actions are positivity correlated to my desires either.

Just so I interpret this correctly, are you saying that you purchase things you don't want?

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#450

Post by tripzilch »

dmix wrote: post #233
lvoudour wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to say exactly that. That's a very well written statement that clarifies the situation more than any news outlet I happened to read on the case. As for the decision, it may seem unfair for Google, but the European commission has to look at the bigger picture: its search dominance is so big that it gives Google an unfair advantage when competing in other business sectors, driving others out of competition even…

Google's search results have become more than just a directory of websites like it was in previous years. It now integrates tons of specialized results such as embedded videos and smart answers to direct questions. It will only move further and further away from simple lists of sites as their AI improves. I fear this fine will deter innovation here as any special results Google adds will be scrutinized heavily. It's…

Well, Google is a dominant market force, even if it is dominant because it is simply that useful so that everybody has to use it.

Because of that dominance, it deserves, no, requires scrutiny much, much more than not being deterred innovation. The latter is a "nice thing", the former is a necessity. Sorry but if you're that big, that dominant, of course we're going to scrutinize your responsibilities. If that's going to mean less fancy features, sad but so be it, the alternative is letting Google abuse all that power unchecked!

edit: I think coldtea said it better (in this same subthread) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14645033

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