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GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

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Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#441

Post by vacri »

dnautics wrote: post #301
domador wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now that you mention it, I'm not sure I want to employ someone who uses their creative energy for anything except the company's business. What a thuggish company, with such a feudal view of its workers! Hopefully most companies understand that they don't own their employees outright.

I wouldn't ascribe malice. Most companies usually do it because the it's the safest way to avoid a legal fight. The more detailed and convoluted the contract becomes the more expensive and time-consuming it becomes to adjudicate. How do you decide whether a 'side-project' is related or unrelated to the work? It's easy to point out obvious cases. (E.g. "I'm a coder and I design a mini golf course for my buddy") but th…

How expensive and time-consuming is it to get all the way through the hiring process, just to have every developer with a clue say "fuck this, I'm not signing"?

The actions described by the GP are not the culmination of deep legal rumination on the topic.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#442

Post by watwut »

serg_chernata wrote: post #281
braythwayt wrote: post #276

Once upon a time, I was looking for a job, in straightened circumstances. I found a so-so match, and since I was in danger of missing a mortgage payment, I decided to accept their offer. Pragmatism and all that. Well, I went in and picked up the documents, and told them I needed to read them before signing and returning them to the company. I looked at the IP clause, and it said the company owned anything and everyth…

> Now that you mention it, I'm not sure I want to employ someone who uses their creative energy for anything except the company's business. I don't think I'll ever understand that attitude. If you're a founder, the business just may be the work of your life. To expect the same level of dedication and obsession from your employees is utterly obscene. If you're lucky enough to find someone who genuinely feels that way,…

Any company that expects you to work long hours, which is majority of SV startups, is exactly like that.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#443

Post by fs111 »

tigershark wrote: post #400
nso wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's minimum requirement for a hire contract in Norway. 3 months mutual notification, and only in a few cases can you be fired on spot without compensation (theft and such). You can contractually increase the notification time from the baseline, but not decrease. Makes for happy and productive workers, and also benefits companies who don't have to worry about loosing their best worker without notice.

3 months notice period seems a very bad deal to me. If you want to change job you simply cannot because no one would wait for 3 months, unless you are at executive level.

you can always negotiate to get out earlier if you want to. That's the way it works in Germany and Belgium, probably in most other European countries as well.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#444

Post by CalRobert »

dozzie wrote: post #412
tigershark wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 months notice period seems a very bad deal to me. If you want to change job you simply cannot because no one would wait for 3 months, unless you are at executive level.

Yes, they would wait. Everybody else in the setting does. And then there probably is a way to shorten the notice period when both sides agree (I extrapolate to Norway how in my country it works).

I was shocked to see that a month of notice is common here (Ireland). It actually was an issue when I wanted to attend a conference for my new employer (gave notice around 11 PM exactly 30 days before I had to fly).

I get that it's apparently an employee protection but it does seem kind of ludicrous. What happens if you rage quit? Win the lottery?

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#445

Post by CalRobert »

zeveb wrote: post #127
fs111 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employment is dead, contract is the way of the future. I am pretty happy with my employment. Paid vacation, paid sick days, reasonable hours and all that good stuff.

Honestly, I like unlimited unpaid days off: they give me the freedom to choose when to work, and when not to, with no hard feelings.

It's surprising how few companies will bend on this. In my experience it seemed like they were more concerned about the possibility of other employees getting notions. It's a big reason to move somewhere that mandates vacation time (though again, I'd rather just take as much time as I want unpaid).

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#446

Post by Dayshine »

CalRobert wrote: post #444
dozzie wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they would wait. Everybody else in the setting does. And then there probably is a way to shorten the notice period when both sides agree (I extrapolate to Norway how in my country it works).

I was shocked to see that a month of notice is common here (Ireland). It actually was an issue when I wanted to attend a conference for my new employer (gave notice around 11 PM exactly 30 days before I had to fly). I get that it's apparently an employee protection but it does seem kind of ludicrous. What happens if you rage quit? Win the lottery?

>What happens if you rage quit? Win the lottery?

Well, I'm a professional, so I finish my job...

I shouldn't be changing job more than once every 2 years, so 3 months is nothing. The notice period is often reduced for the first 6 months, or you can ask for that before signing your contract.

In reality a company has no real desire to keep a disgruntled employee longer than they have to, so you can burn bridges and leave earlier if force the issue. It's a pretty unprofessional thing to do though.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#447

Post by Dayshine »

Jare wrote: post #414
tigershark wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 months notice period seems a very bad deal to me. If you want to change job you simply cannot because no one would wait for 3 months, unless you are at executive level.

If everyone is the same situation then that delay becomes just a normal aspect of the hiring process. I'd be more concerned about the types of abuses that the delay could allow in countries with a less mature employment culture: backing off at the last minute and wasting 3 months of that company's time, bullying a leaver for all of 3 months to discourage other people, etc.

>backing off at the last minute and wasting 3 months of that company's time

Means you're unlikely to get another job in the industry.

>bullying a leaver for all of 3 months to discourage other people

Would result in an easy case for constructive dismissal.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#448

Post by dspillett »

elastic_church wrote: post #252
dspillett wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on how vicious the company is when "crossed" you might find they can make it expensive for you for a while by trying to enforce it and making you put resource into fighting back. Personally, if I don't agree with and and/or aren't willing to stand by it, I don't sign it. Of course for some less fortunate desperation means they have to compromise on such ideals.

right thats something to consider there's just so many ways around it and I'd LOVE to get some case law made just to get some unknowns clarified. Like when I contribute to an already existing open source project on company's time/resource/IP-appropriation-regime, do they get to rewrite the Apache license because one contributor had signed a contract? when running this open source software that happens to generate a t…

There is also another factor to consider: while all this is playing out, in public, you are someone being highlighted as having signed a contract disingenuously. It doesn't matter how bad the contract is, the fact that you signed it and reneged on it later could look bad to future employers (especially if they have links to the company in question through the old-boy network or similar!).

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#449

Post by stefek99 »

I still remember when I had to sign employment contract that claimed ownership rights for "all the original creation".

(even in my own time, own equipment, not related to work)

Highly demotivational, knowing they own everything:

- cooking recipes

- yoga sequence

- drawing with my kids

- gardening

- photography

- urine and other waste material

I believe that giving power to the employees empowers them!

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#450

Post by stefek99 »

braythwayt wrote: post #276

Once upon a time, I was looking for a job, in straightened circumstances. I found a so-so match, and since I was in danger of missing a mortgage payment, I decided to accept their offer. Pragmatism and all that. Well, I went in and picked up the documents, and told them I needed to read them before signing and returning them to the company. I looked at the IP clause, and it said the company owned anything and everyth…

Congratulations on choosing satisfaction and happiness!

I resulted in signing the contract - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13929845 - and I was unhappy right from the start.

:(

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