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Bootcamps vs. College

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Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#441

Post by kmonsen »

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #312
kmonsen wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, we pay people to do a job. Sure some coworkers become friends, but most don't. As long as people are somewhat easy to get along with I don't think we should focus too much on other stuff.

I wasn't implying that they should become friends. I meant that the working world doesn't tolerate the "I'm definitely right" mentality that comes with God's greatest gift, the 22 year old college grad. I'm joking about that last part, but there is a certain tact that only comes through time. A 25 year old is much more willing to say "I'm wrong, and I have no idea what I'm doing" than a 22 year old. This alone is a h…

I think you are right and it is much more pleasant to work in a team with people who doesn't have to be right all the time. At least I think so :-)

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#442

Post by eropple »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #440
eropple wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of my four full-time jobs in my career, one had a prior contact and one was a you-know-nothing,-you're-a-college-hire job. (Much of my consulting comes from my personal network, of course.) Two were startups, two were big companies. Interestingly, the startups were more amenable to "you don't know this but you are obviously capable of picking this up". Your point about personal appeal is well made, and I'm pretty goo…

Thanks for providing the extra detail. I think it helps to confirm that your situation is a major outlier experience.

But in which direction? =) Is it an outlier because of luck, or because my approach is different? While I've certainly had my share of luck, I fundamentally approach this stuff as a human problem, and I think that's a difference of kind that matters.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#443

Post by eropple »

imauld wrote: post #439
eropple wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only thing most grads have on bootcamp people is algorithm knowledge. "Just teach algorithms." Do you have two years to spare to do so? Because I'm a platform engineer and I regularly use the extent of my CS mathematics education to write better code--you'd think this'd just be Ruby slinging, "what sort of math do you need to automate systems", but it ends up being remarkably more than that! But you know what e…

> I use the lessons from my economics courses. I use the lessons from my sociology courses. I use the lessons from my political science courses. Are you gonna bootcamp those, too? Or are you going to turn out a marginally skilled worker with a worse educational foundation? Every single person in my boot camp class had a college education. One person was a college professor prior to attending. Several people actually…

That hasn't been my experience when working with or attempting to hire bootcamp grads, but I'm glad that it happens in some cases! I've seen a lot of HS-to-professional types, some with some college and some without.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#444

Post by ThomPete »

nostrebored wrote: post #434
ThomPete wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when I developed the same areas and wasn't in studying how do you explain that?

It's not a winner take all game. Of course you can develop skills both ways. One way places an emphasis on it. Think of a good CS degree as an interface for abstract thinking.

nothing to do with winner takes all. CS degree does not guarantee you to be able to do abstract thinking. Thats the point. It's a skill you develop way before you even go take a CS degree.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#445

Post by p4wnc6 »

eropple wrote: post #442
p4wnc6 wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for providing the extra detail. I think it helps to confirm that your situation is a major outlier experience.

But in which direction? =) Is it an outlier because of luck, or because my approach is different? While I've certainly had my share of luck, I fundamentally approach this stuff as a human problem , and I think that's a difference of kind that matters.

You've only been rejected twice out of 155 attempts due to technical lack of fit. Most people I know in tech have read the Carnegie book, etc., and put tons of effort into the human and communication side, that's super common. But they experience a far greater rate of rejection for a claimed lack of tech fit, usually centered on highly specific prior knowledge in that one firm's tech stack.

It's borderline unbelievable that any person would happen to have the right tech skill set for about 153/155 jobs, so either the data you collected doesn't reflect the real reasons why you didn't get some opportunities, or else you are a massive outlier in terms of your qualifications. Either way, your data doesn't seem generally applicable.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#446

Post by RubyRuby »

komali2 wrote: post #322
brudgers wrote: post #184

There are several factors that don't enter this analysis. 1. Bootcamps can be selective over a range of non-academic criteria such as interview skills, personal hygene, and prior work experience. Or to put it another way, unlike a public university, a boot camp can select for culture fit both in its internal cohorts and in the workplaces it targets. 2. Bootcamps tend to attract people with previous work experience: s…

I work for a popular bootcamp and can offer further insight. Interviews: Criteria include technical ability. Our site points towards a lot of free resources for learning JS, and I can personally attribute that there is enough material to get a liberal arts student from 0 to a basic understanding of core JS functions. If they can't use those free resources to self-teach, or haven't grocked the material after attending…

Are there any candidates that come in already with programming jobs who want to diversify or enhance their existing skill for their current or future roles?

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#447

Post by imauld »

eropple wrote: post #443
imauld wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I use the lessons from my economics courses. I use the lessons from my sociology courses. I use the lessons from my political science courses. Are you gonna bootcamp those, too? Or are you going to turn out a marginally skilled worker with a worse educational foundation? Every single person in my boot camp class had a college education. One person was a college professor prior to attending. Several people actually…

That hasn't been my experience when working with or attempting to hire bootcamp grads, but I'm glad that it happens in some cases! I've seen a lot of HS-to-professional types, some with some college and some without.

I've been in one bootcamp class so my results may not be representative :-).

However I also get the feeling that being a developer has become more visible as well paying, in demand job similar to being lawyer was a decade or so ago. A lot of people wanted to be lawyers not because they were passionate about law but because they knew they could make a lot of money.

I get the impression that many people are drawn to boot camps by ads along the lines of "Make $XXk+ being a dev in X weeks" as opposed to being interested in the field.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#448

Post by komali2 »

RubyRuby wrote: post #446
komali2 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a popular bootcamp and can offer further insight. Interviews: Criteria include technical ability. Our site points towards a lot of free resources for learning JS, and I can personally attribute that there is enough material to get a liberal arts student from 0 to a basic understanding of core JS functions. If they can't use those free resources to self-teach, or haven't grocked the material after attending…

Are there any candidates that come in already with programming jobs who want to diversify or enhance their existing skill for their current or future roles?

Occasionally, yes, though I'd say that 2% of accepted students because people already in the industry have the skills to learn what is needed switch over from say back to front end, or apps to webapps, etc.

Typically these students learn a great deal of soft skills and pair-programming skills while they're here, so I think it's still valuable.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#449

Post by komali2 »

santiagobasulto wrote: post #408
komali2 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a popular bootcamp and can offer further insight. Interviews: Criteria include technical ability. Our site points towards a lot of free resources for learning JS, and I can personally attribute that there is enough material to get a liberal arts student from 0 to a basic understanding of core JS functions. If they can't use those free resources to self-teach, or haven't grocked the material after attending…

Really good summary. What bootcamp is that, can we know? At least, are you guys based in SV or NY? I'm curious about the placement fees. I always thought there were some placement fees.

Apologies, I like to keep my online and RL identities as separate as possible.

In any case, I can only speak for one bootcamp. I really don't know if all the other ones are doing placement fees.

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