SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’ • Hacker News Board

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#441

Post by chris_wot » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:15 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #439

chris_wot wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, then, we have a fundamental difference of opinion. If I see someone make claims that the vast majority of homeless people are completely unhelpable because of a specific example which they have observed anecdotally, then I'll ask for empirical evidence. Nobody is calling that person a liar. Asking someone for evidence does not necessarily mean they consider that person a liar. They may believe they are mistaken…

> You should ask yourself why you consider asking for evidence on a discussion forum rude. It sounds like you feel it's overly confrontational. I already answered this question, multiple times. It has nothing to do with being confrontational. It has to do with being RUDE. Rude: discourteous or impolite, especially in a deliberate way [1] [1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rude Nobody owes you ANY citations. Y…

You are being incredibly rude to me. Kind of ironic really. I think this is the end of me discussing this with you now :-)

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#442

Post by lintiness » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:16 PM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #320

themartorana wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services. So what's the political argument against it?

There's no more political arguments to it. Conservatives, anymore, are simply a tool to attempt to dismantle the government, full stop. They simply don't believe we should have a government, mostly because they don't like paying taxes.

you live in a very simple place. "conservatives" (this term cracks me up) love government when it works, fear it when it doesn't. they tend to trust / prefer private institutions and solutions to public. american "liberals" prefer public solutions to private.

quit disparaging people who disagree with you. attempt to understand their real motivations rather than harping against some lame stereotype (that doesn't even make sense). that's the way to progress and solving our problems.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#443

Post by 1024core » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:17 PM UTC

beatpanda wrote: post #393

1024core wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The key thing to note here is that with very, very few exceptions, everyone living on the street was a 'normal' person. That is where you are dead wrong. I would highly recommend you walk down 13th street (aka Duboce or Division, can't remember) and talk to the people living in the tent colony lining it. I have; it used to be my way to work till the hassle became too much and I started taking a detour. I would posi…

Serious question: how many people working in the software industry do you know who don't use drugs or alcohol? If everybody in San Francisco was held to the insane standards shelter clients are held to, nobody would be able to stay in an apartment for more than a week.

That's a strawman. There's a difference between drinking a couple of pints of beer with buddies, and emptying a pint of cheap vodka and passing out on the street, covered in your own urine and/or vomit.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#444

Post by beatpanda » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:19 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #443

beatpanda wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how many people working in the software industry do you know who don't use drugs or alcohol? If everybody in San Francisco was held to the insane standards shelter clients are held to, nobody would be able to stay in an apartment for more than a week.

That's a strawman. There's a difference between drinking a couple of pints of beer with buddies, and emptying a pint of cheap vodka and passing out on the street, covered in your own urine and/or vomit.

And your comment is also a strawman, because people get kicked out of shelters for simple possession.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#445

Post by dang » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:22 PM UTC

pj_mukh wrote: post #53

Any data to back this up? Can't really go on anecdotal stories or EMS accounts (who only see emergency situations by design).

HN is not a peer-reviewed journal. It's a place for conversation.

monkmartinez has made higher-quality contributions to this conversation than we could ever hope to see in so controversial a thread. Because of that, what would normally have been a trainwreck discussion has, astonishingly, been pretty good. Let's not disparage that as "anecodotal".

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11126175 and marked it off-topic.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#446

Post by civilian » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:29 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #437

civilian wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you, the witchhunts need to end. Even if the bluetribe is correct in their beliefs, the mob action is not persuasive. I have less respect than ever for liberals because of this disrespectful way of handling public discourse.

It's a mistake to see this phenomenon as bound to any political position. It's a human trait and we all do it, we just do it about different things.

I agree that it's not bound to any political position, but it's more egregious with the left right now.

Or possibly, based off of my media consumption, I only see the left's witchunts and I'm insulated from the right's.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#447

Post by mindslight » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:30 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #438

mindslight wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be on to something here, in that the incentives are completely changed. Rather than cooperatively funding programs, adversarially fund programs - create competition for who can serve the homeless the best, elsewhere . The "enforcement" aspect isn't even really necessary - just give out this income often enough and far enough away from the city that traveling back and forth every time is impractical. I'm ima…

The important distinction is that this plan should be privately funded. Otherwise it would take vital public money that's used to help people truly in need. Everybody falls on hard times. Some more than worse. The mayor of my town was homeless for a while, and he truly brings a sympathetic ear to the stubborn and persistent problems with homelessness (not just the homeless themselves). My idea is that people on the m…

I think the core of the idea could work with public money as well. In the short term, I agree it's not wise to divert public money to such an experiment. But if it worked over the long term, it would align incentives better.

Currently, a city spending more money on its homeless population creates positive feedback - more people come for the better benefits. It's in no single city's interest to spend too much, especially if they have amenities such as nice weather. What we need is negative feedback so the system balances out. Harsher policing provides this, but is rightly frowned upon and the spending ultimately ends up wasted. Funding homeless in other cities would also set up negative feedback, but with the spending actually benefiting the homeless.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#448

Post by idanoeman » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:31 PM UTC

aback wrote: post #317

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that "left" and "right" can be replaced with how a big a circle of humanity you care about. The people towards the right care about their family, or their community. The people on the left care about a slightly wider circle. On the far "right" you get sociopaths that only care about themselves. On the far "left" you get utopian hippies that care about people suffering on the other side of the world. W…

I have long agreed with this theory. There's a reason why the right is like that IMO, and it gets down to this diagram: http://33.media.tumblr.com/e1aaee07d8101970433020eee016ff9b/... It is my opinion that people naturally care mostly about themselves, then the people closest to them, and less about people on the other side of the world. It is also my opinion (referring to the diagram) that the closer you are to bein…

Agreed, except that the marginal value of money is exponentially higher for the poorest people in the world. For example, the Against Malaria foundation can save a life for approximately $2838 [1] pre-tax dollars. The people closest to you do not need your money that badly.

[1] http://www.givewell.org/international/top-charities/amf#Cost...

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#449

Post by marknutter » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:34 PM UTC

shopkins wrote: post #356

marknutter wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is simply no justification for the level of backlash he is receiving. None. >But we don't publish it on the internet because of some grandiose vision that our words will suddenly shine light on the issue and spur someone to action. Sure, we all just step over the homeless, ignore the problem, and go about our day. Justin expressed his frustration, and guess what we're all talking about now - that uncomfortable…

Yes, that's what it's about: changing the things you're frustrated by. Because the world expects more from the people who build the hardware and software they depend on everyday than some petulant whining. This evisceration is a testament to that. It should be celebrated. So if you're frustrated, great. Write it in your diary, and then tell us all when you come up with a good solution. But if you have to dehumanize p…

> But if you have to dehumanize people to get your point across, then yes, to the rest of the world you're just a "tech bro" sitting behind your computer screen who can't handle the realities of human life.

People dehumanize tech workers, the wealthy, and other "privileged" people all the time. And frankly, I'm fine with it. It's hard to acknowledge the human aspect of a problem when you're talking about it from a high level. Statisticians and scientists dehumanize people all the time because they need to remain subjective. There's nothing inherently wrong with dehumanizing people and sometimes it's necessary in order to make hard decisions about real problems.

What I'm not cool with are virtual lynch mobs doxxing and inciting people to attack someone for holding an unpopular opinion.

And for the record, I find no offense in the term "tech bro".

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#450

Post by at-fates-hands » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 8:45 PM UTC

pfarnsworth wrote: post #287

at-fates-hands wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what kind of solution the government should have. There's already a myriad of local, state and federal housing programs already in place. Whether its temporary emergency housing, eviction protection, child care services, or in some cases, low income housing and federal subsidies for permanent housing. There's plenty of safety nets in California, let alone the SF area. If people want to get off the streets, t…

You forgot the most important link: http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-spends-record... SF spends $241 million per year on homeless, with no accountability and no ability to track results. They are NOT going above and beyond, they are wasting money with no improvement in results.

Funny, I did some research and found this article which seems to know where most of the money is going. So what happened in two years between my article in 2014 and your article that came out in 2016?

How are you able to track this and then in two years, you suddenly have no idea where all the money is going?

http://archives.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/sf-spends-1657-m...

The lion’s share of the funding goes toward supportive housing, which provides specialized and intensive services to the recently homeless as they adjust to a new way of life, with some combating drug addiction and receiving mental health care.

The City spends $81.5 million annually for 6,355 supportive units, or about $13,000 per unit. Of the 6,436 homeless individuals counted in last year’s homeless count, 3,401 were on the streets without shelter while the other homeless people counted resided in shelters, transitional housing, resource centers, residential treatment, jail or hospitals.

And

Even though The City has built 3,000 new supportive-housing units since 2002, the homeless population has remained mostly flat. The population has ranged from 6,248 to 6,514 since 2005, after dropping from 8,640 in 2002.

You claim "zero accountability" but there's several paragraphs and a large graph showing where the money goes in your article. Not sure how you fix "accountability" if your city continues to build housing for these people and continue toe expand their budget to help them. What else do you want them to do???? Most other cities would see this and spend the money elsewhere and cut the spending on these programs in a heartbeat.