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Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

discuss.grapheneos.org

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Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#431

Post by dmichulke »

jdw64 wrote: post #390

Because I frequently supply to the automotive industry, I fully understand all these issues. No matter how good many open source projects are, companies always have to face lawsuits and liability. That is why, no matter how good Linux servers are, factories use Microsoft servers. Regarding the responsibility for that software, if a problem occurs, the company that signed the contract takes on the liability. Ultimatel…

Are you saying Microsoft ever paid damages for problems with Windows (e.g. a non-bootable computer after an OS update)?

I think they didn't, so I don't see why them having the responsibility matters.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#432

Post by microtonal »

crote wrote: post #423
microtonal wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they don't is the same reason Google closed my ticket asking them to include Graphene keys in Play Integrity checks: they don't care. I think the reasons are very different. VW maybe doesn't care. Google does it because it would undermine their stronghold over the platform. If they would allow GrapheneOS, what would block Samsung or another OEM from also sandboxing Play Services and not preinstalling a bun…

Alternatively: don't add inherently-unsafe functionality which requires attestation in order to have a veneer of "safety". As media piracy and game cheating has shown: no matter how hard you try, there will always be ways around it. You should assume that 3rd-party device you have zero control over is already compromised, so why not use the API as the boundary layer, stop pretending you can secure the app, and open i…

Yeah, in the case at hand it's quite silly anyway. We have a VW car and the primary things you can do with the app is check the charging state, stop charging, and turn on the heating/airco.

Unless I overlook something, the worst attack vector for a compromised phone is: you could drain the battery by repeatedly turning on the airco.

Though I guess they are rolling out phone-based car keys, which may be the incentive.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#433

Post by rurban »

noisy_boy wrote: post #349
anonymousiam wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google has a pretty good legal team. Their developer ToS that absolves them of any sort of liability for anything. So this means VW is just being lazy and not seeking legal protection. https://play.google/developer-distribution-agreement.html

> VW is just being lazy Maybe they rather be lazy and be able to shift blame, even without much legal recourse.

They don't care about legal recourse. If there's something wrong, they'll just change the laws. That's why they don't care about GrapheneOS users, or any EU regulation which could harm them.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#434

Post by blablabla123 »

torginus wrote: post #151

Isn't this for the same reason why you can't do banking on an unlocked bootloader phone? There's no way to verify the integrity of the system, and any malicious app can just grab your banking credentials or enable criminals to unlock and drive away with your car.

On every boot I see the sha hash of the image plus there's the attestation App. I've never seen either before and I used both stock Android and LineageOS. Also every App gets granular permission control and there's an automatic reminder to remove permissions for unused Apps. Classic example of Enterprise thinking on VW's side.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#435

Post by SapporoChris »

thiht wrote: post #411
SapporoChris wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what a Venn Diagram of people that use GrapheneOS and people that wish to purchase a Volkswagen vehicle looks like. As of April 2026, the operating system had approximately 400K active users. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GrapheneOS I wish that Volkswagen would care about this, but I suspect they have little incentive to do so.

Volkswagen has a 10% market share in Europe (25% if you consider the whole group: Audi, Cupra, etc.) Assuming 25% (might be overinflated) of GrapheneOS are European, that’s 10000 European GrapheneOS users who would buy a Volkswagen car (assuming an unbiased distribution of GrapheneOS users, which is probably not the case though). I don’t think Volkswagen is in a strong position to say they don’t care about 10000 sale…

Good point. I wasn't considering the different concentrations of interests by area.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#436

Post by dj0k3r »

Arainach wrote: post #5
warkdarrior wrote: post #2

Answer from VW: > Please note that the use of the Volkswagen app is only supported on iOS devices and Android devices with supported operating system versions. Is it time to mandate app developers support all operating systems for a device?

No. You're not required to use the app. You're not even entitled to use the app. If you want to use the app, you have to play by their rules. Plenty of device manufacturers have chosen to only offer iOS apps. No one talked about mandating that apps were available on competing platforms. If you choose to use something like GrapheneOS, you are signing up for the fact that almost no one will test on your platform and pl…

The difference here is that the devs specifically chose to stop allowing the app to work on the OS without any known compatibility issue? The app just works fine on Android should they let it run.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#437

Post by vitorbaptistaa »

this_user wrote: post #90
moooo99 wrote: post #70

It is amazing how Volkswagen keeps messing up. I am currently in the market for a new car, an EV specifically. Volkswagen brands were at the top of my list for many reasons, among them the excellent driving assist implementation. I got an offer from a dealer three weeks ago and was going to order the car, then the API for the community integration got turned off. I decided to hold back and see what comes from it. Now…

German companies, especially old school industrial ones like VW, have a very hard time understanding open platforms. The view everything through the lense of liability and compliance first. Their thinking is that if someone runs their app on a custom ROM and uses that to manipulate the app in any way, and that causes some extremely hypothetical damage, that they might be held liable for not having prevented this situ…

The same company that supposedly views everything through the lens of liability and compliance does this:

> When the cars were operating under controlled laboratory conditions - which typically involve putting them on a stationary test rig - the device appears to have put the vehicle into a sort of safety mode in which the engine ran below normal power and performance. Once on the road, the engines switched out of this test mode.

>

> The result? The engines emitted nitrogen oxide pollutants up to 40 times above what is allowed in the US.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#438

Post by theandrewbailey »

SapporoChris wrote: post #385
hydrogen7800 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Make sure that dealers know why you changed your mind. "Some nerd couldn't use their nerd phone." What incentive does a dealer have to know or care about this?

I wonder what a Venn Diagram of people that use GrapheneOS and people that wish to purchase a Volkswagen vehicle looks like. As of April 2026, the operating system had approximately 400K active users. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GrapheneOS I wish that Volkswagen would care about this, but I suspect they have little incentive to do so.

That number might grow substantially when Motorola releases GrapheneOS phones.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#439

Post by snarfy »

moooo99 wrote: post #70

It is amazing how Volkswagen keeps messing up. I am currently in the market for a new car, an EV specifically. Volkswagen brands were at the top of my list for many reasons, among them the excellent driving assist implementation. I got an offer from a dealer three weeks ago and was going to order the car, then the API for the community integration got turned off. I decided to hold back and see what comes from it. Now…

I can't even consider them after diesel gate. When I start thinking about it, it's quite sad how many car brands are terrible. I own two Mazdas. Still terrible but the least I could find.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#440

Post by inigyou »

this_user wrote: post #90
moooo99 wrote: post #70

It is amazing how Volkswagen keeps messing up. I am currently in the market for a new car, an EV specifically. Volkswagen brands were at the top of my list for many reasons, among them the excellent driving assist implementation. I got an offer from a dealer three weeks ago and was going to order the car, then the API for the community integration got turned off. I decided to hold back and see what comes from it. Now…

German companies, especially old school industrial ones like VW, have a very hard time understanding open platforms. The view everything through the lense of liability and compliance first. Their thinking is that if someone runs their app on a custom ROM and uses that to manipulate the app in any way, and that causes some extremely hypothetical damage, that they might be held liable for not having prevented this situ…

They have to, because German society is extremely litigious and based on finding loopholes in rules.

You know how some religious groups will string a rope between two houses, count it as a roof as long as they're within a certain horizontal distance of it, so they can follow the rope on occasions when the religion says they have to stay inside, and they think God enjoys them finding these loopholes?

Germany is like that, but with lawsuits. If anyone with money finds a technicality to sue you on, they will. So you have to be extremely liability averse if you want to be successful in business. Also, liability is almost always unlimited. You can be bankrupted by a single bad lawsuit.

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