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DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

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Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#431

Post by lejalv »

throwburn202605 wrote: post #237
missedthecue wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They haven't raised enough money to be selling at a loss. And selling at a loss to gain market share in an industry with zero switching friction between sellers is not a strategy. That doesn't make sense. Loss leading only works when - it leads to a situation that allows you to prevent competitors from selling to your customers (gilded age railroad and pipeline industries are great examples). Then you can eventually…

Maybe Anthropics efforts to thwart deepseek from distilling their model is bearing fruit. So their strategy now is to try get as much raw content for their inference. You're being "paid", via discount, for your use

> So their strategy now is to try get as much raw content for their inference. You're being "paid", via discount, for your use

There is an implicit social contract, and for many it might work out well:

We use your data to improve the model. You get to use the improved model for affordable prices and (the important part): you get _the model_.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#432

Post by themafia »

lejalv wrote: post #424
themafia wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then it will no longer require subsidy from them Is there actually a huge Chinese consumer market for these products? If not then I'm not sure how you ever actually achieve this endpoint. Chinese wages and American wages are not nearly the same thing yet. > It will simply be absolutely cheaper (including profit margin) to serve tokens in China. It will simply create more pollution and environmental destruction too.…

You got me with fair. Gerrymandering, PACs, two-party system, electoral college. Where do we start...

We start logically. Do you presume your handful of cases exemplify the entire Democratic system? Do you assume that "China" is best understood as a single centralized entity?

You completely walked past the argument to pick at a meaningless nit.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#433

Post by lejalv »

doctoboggan wrote: post #31

I am more worried about accidental data leak (agent reading env file for example) with the Chinese hosted models compared to the US hosted models. Am I wrong to suspect that the Chinese government might be more likely to scan all chats and save useful information compared to the US government or company? I hesitated to even post this comment as it sounds biased and xenophobic. I would love for someone to convince me…

Yes, you are wrong, and yes it is xenophobic, and no it won't stop because you are too afraid to fall from your Hollywood-induced exceptionalism.

Where were you when ... everything happened? Keywords: Snowden, five eyes, FISA, PRISM, ...

Laws in the US are irrelevant. And Google has much more sensitive data to cross with any inputs you give them than Chinese companies. Also the extraterritorial executions, coups, etc. are the US specialty. So yes, you're wrong, and it comes across as xenophobic (fear of the strange or foreign).

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#434

Post by lejalv »

WarmWash wrote: post #164
doctoboggan wrote: post #31

I am more worried about accidental data leak (agent reading env file for example) with the Chinese hosted models compared to the US hosted models. Am I wrong to suspect that the Chinese government might be more likely to scan all chats and save useful information compared to the US government or company? I hesitated to even post this comment as it sounds biased and xenophobic. I would love for someone to convince me…

[flagged]

I really like the part where Trump has been prevented from pardoning violent rioters that caused deaths in an attempted coup d'état. Super impressive, great democracy.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#435

Post by skeledrew »

WarmWash wrote: post #391
skeledrew wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> throwing a hissy fit over the court rulings He'll of course executively order those pesky things out of existence in time, or find other workarounds as he currently is.

Your reply is self-contradictory Why would he need workarounds if he can "executively order those pesky things out of existence"? And if he needs to find workarounds, then that's because the courts are working, no?

Some things the EOs work for, and some things they - currently - don't. The workarounds are for the latter.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#436

Post by radialstub »

palata wrote: post #419
radialstub wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, like literally every other time this has played out in computing history, the companies focused on price performance will end up with more economic resources, and get to turn the upgrade crank more often and for longer. The iphone is the best selling computing device in history and is among the most expensive in its category.

Most smartphones being sold are Android, though.

True, however apple makes the overwhelming majority of the profit in the smartphone market.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#437

Post by Projectiboga »

palata wrote: post #425
fridder wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be more far to say: they needed the US until they caught up. The massive straight up IP theft helps a lot here. Though theft might be too strong since a lot of companies knew what they were getting in to

> The massive straight up IP theft helps a lot here I think this is vastly underestimating what "catching up" means. All my life, people have been saying "China copies". Now they are objectively better at many things (including robotics), and... well it seems that we cannot "just copy". I saw western companies trying to "copy" superior Chinese technology, talking to brilliant engineers explaining how much they were l…

China is out producing us at new scientists and engineers.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#438

Post by lejalv »

themafia wrote: post #432
lejalv wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got me with fair. Gerrymandering, PACs, two-party system, electoral college. Where do we start...

We start logically. Do you presume your handful of cases exemplify the entire Democratic system? Do you assume that "China" is best understood as a single centralized entity? You completely walked past the argument to pick at a meaningless nit.

Handing out lessons in democracy from the record-holder country in foreign intervention (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...) had equal civil rights only in the 1960s, pardoned the perpetrators of Jan 6, has its supreme court in entirely political hands, and has the awesomest repressive force in the world, together with the incarcerated population to go with.

Maybe I picked like 4 meaningless nits as in: US politicians respect so much democracy that they constantly reweight "one person, one vote" to suit the interest of the incumbent, they do not have their outrageously expensive campaigns financed (legally) by private interest groups, the popular vote is represented, and elections are uncontested (unless the wrong candidate wins, where the Supreme Court promptly fixes the issue), and it has room for more than two (quite similar I may say) viewpoints in representation.

Maybe.

But please don't call “Yea, it's funny what having open and fair elections can do for a country.” an argument.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#439

Post by whatshisface »

palata wrote: post #425
fridder wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be more far to say: they needed the US until they caught up. The massive straight up IP theft helps a lot here. Though theft might be too strong since a lot of companies knew what they were getting in to

> The massive straight up IP theft helps a lot here I think this is vastly underestimating what "catching up" means. All my life, people have been saying "China copies". Now they are objectively better at many things (including robotics), and... well it seems that we cannot "just copy". I saw western companies trying to "copy" superior Chinese technology, talking to brilliant engineers explaining how much they were l…

Producing great products is a game at which every player wins, because sellers must find willing buyers. It only fails if one participant panics and jumps out of the window, or if a significant number of people are not participating (this is always the case when wealth inequality is involved).

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#440

Post by encrypted_bird »

toddmorey wrote: post #328
Nifty3929 wrote: post #306

China may be subsidizing this for now in a way that US companies can't or won't - but if they keep building power infrastructure and the US doesn't, then it will no longer require subsidy from them. It will simply be absolutely cheaper (including profit margin) to serve tokens in China. China is building for the future, while Western Democracies are afraid of the future, and of their own shadow.

It feels like the US for years has operated under the assumption that homeostasis for the global economy would always be “designed in California, assembled in China.” Like there was something in the American DNA that was lacking in China and innovation would always need to happen here. But China it seems doesn’t need the US to produce great cars, devices, robotics, or AI. We absolutely need China to help us build all…

> Like there was something in the American DNA that was lacking in China

In most Americans' eyes, unfortunately, there was. It was just known by the name "American Exceptionalism". Yes, it's nonsense, but unfortunately it is nonsense that has historically been used by most empires throughout history, and believed just as fervently by said empires' populi since it's one of the central elements of imperialism as a whole.

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