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The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

bramcohen.com

431–440 of 555 posts

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#431
post #88

It’s truly strange that people keep citing the quality of Claude code’s leaked source as if it’s proof vibe coding doesn’t work. If anything, it’s the exact opposite. It shows that you can build a crazy popular & successful product while violating all the traditional rules about “good” code.

I suspect if people saw the handwritten code of many, many, many products that they used every day they would be shocked. I've worked at BigCos and startups, and a lot of the terrible code that makes it to production was shocking when I first started. This isn't a dig at anyone, I've certainly shipped my share of bad code as well. Deadlines, despite my wishes sometimes, continue to exist. Sometimes you have to ship a…

To me, it instead sounds like you care about the code you produce. You judge it more harshly than you probably do other code. It sounds like you are also meeting deadlines, so I'd call that a success and more production than what a lot of people tend to put out into the world.

I often have a lot of time between projects, and am able to really think about things, and write the code that I'm happy with. Even when I do that, I do some more research, or work on another project, and immediately I'm picking apart sections of my code that I really took the time to "get right." Sometimes it can be worse if you are given vast amounts of time to build your solution, where some form of deadline may have pushed you to make decisions you were able to put off. At least that's my perspective on it, I feel like if you love writing software, you are going to keep improving nearly constantly, and look back at what you've done and be able to pick it apart.

To keep myself from getting too distressed over looking at past code now, I tend to look at the overall architecture and success of the project (in regards to the performing what it was supposed to, not necessarily monetarily). If I see a piece of code that I feel could have been written far better, I look at how it fits into the rest. I tend to work on very small teams, so I'm often making architecture decisions that touch large areas of the code, so this may just be from my perspective of not working on a large team. I still do think if you care about your craft, you will be harsh on yourself, more than you deserve.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#432
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect if people saw the handwritten code of many, many, many products that they used every day they would be shocked. I've worked at BigCos and startups, and a lot of the terrible code that makes it to production was shocking when I first started. This isn't a dig at anyone, I've certainly shipped my share of bad code as well. Deadlines, despite my wishes sometimes, continue to exist. Sometimes you have to ship a…

This is the product that's claiming "coding is a solved problem" though. I get a junior developer or a team of developers with varying levels of experience and a lot of pressure to deliver producing crummy code, but not the very tool that's supposed to be the state-of-the-art coder.

I mean, hasn't it learned from reading other's code? I don't think it can be any better than the common patterns and practices that it has been trained on. Some outlier of amazing code is probably not going to make much of a difference, unless I am completely misunderstanding LLMs (which I very well may be, and would gladly take any criticism on my take here).

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#433

It’s truly strange that people keep citing the quality of Claude code’s leaked source as if it’s proof vibe coding doesn’t work. If anything, it’s the exact opposite. It shows that you can build a crazy popular & successful product while violating all the traditional rules about “good” code.

It's always been the case that you could make something that sort of worked for a while with terrible code. The problem was that your product would have random regressions all the time (which theirs does!) and as a result no serious buyers would pay for it.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#434
post #289
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, does this mean that Anthropic employees don't understand Claude Code's code since it's level 7? I've got to believe they have staff capable of understanding the output and they would spend at least some time reviewing code for a product like this?

Yes, I believe the creator has outright stated that they just YOLO vibe and don't even look at the code.

This is why we need some kind of professional accountability for software engineers. This behavior is willful malpractice, and it only flies because they know they'll never face consequences when it goes wrong. Let's change that.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#435
the middle ground nobody talks about is using AI for the boring infrastructure stuff (stripe integration, auth boilerplate, static site scaffolding) and writing the actual business logic yourself. i've shipped like 3 side projects this year using that approach and the code quality is fine because im not vibe coding the parts that actually matter

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#436
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm just a little tired of seeing these pull requests of multi-thousand-line pull requests where no one has actually looked at the code. The solution people are coming up with now is using AI for code reviews and I have to ask "why involve Git at all then?". If AI is writing the code, testing the code, reviewing the code, and merging the code, then it seems to me that we can just remove these steps and simply P…

> why involve Git at all then? I made a similar point 3 weeks ago. It wasn't very well received. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47411693 You don't actually need source control to be able to roll back to any particular version that was in use. A series of tarballs will let you do that. The entire purpose of source control is to let you reason about change sets to help you make decisions about the direction that…

A series of tarballs is version control.

Git gives you the series of past snapshots if that's all you want it for, but in infrastructure you don't need to re-invent.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#437

No, I completely disagree with this entire article. Bad code or good code is no longer relevant anymore. What matters is whether or not AI fulfills the contract as to how the application is supposed to work. If the code sucks, you just rerun the prompt again and the next iteration will be better. But better doesn't matter because humans aren't reading the code anymore. I haven't written a line of code since January a…

This entirely depends on the product. If it’s your own personal blog, then for sure no need to read the code, but a change in a banking architecture would be irresponsible to not have an understanding of the actual code change.

> If it’s your own personal blog, then for sure no need to read the code,

I can off the top of my head think of at least three ways in which being careless with the code powering "your personal blog" could have real consequences. Suppose it has a bug which allows unauthenticated users to manage your pages, or even worse remote code execution. Then it could be used as a jumping-off point to attack other systems, for instance by turning it into a C&C server for some malware. It could be used in a "watering hole attack" against your readers. Or someone could edit the blog articles to make it appear that you said something you didn't.

"Not reading the code" is irresponsible for any software exposed to the global network.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#438
post #88

It’s truly strange that people keep citing the quality of Claude code’s leaked source as if it’s proof vibe coding doesn’t work. If anything, it’s the exact opposite. It shows that you can build a crazy popular & successful product while violating all the traditional rules about “good” code.

I suspect if people saw the handwritten code of many, many, many products that they used every day they would be shocked. I've worked at BigCos and startups, and a lot of the terrible code that makes it to production was shocking when I first started. This isn't a dig at anyone, I've certainly shipped my share of bad code as well. Deadlines, despite my wishes sometimes, continue to exist. Sometimes you have to ship a…

It's an unpopular truth for our industry, but the point of commercial software development is not to write good code; it's to write profitable code.

There are some cases where the most profitable code is also good code. We like those.

But in most (99%+) cases, the code is not going to survive contact with the market and so spending any time on making it good is wasted.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#439

This reminds me of Clayton Christensen's theory of disruption. Disruption happens when firms are disincentivized to switch to the new thing or address the new customer because the current state of it is bad, the margins are low. Intel missed out on mobile because their existing business was so excellent and making phone chips seemed beneath them. The funny thing is that these firms are being completely rational. Why…

Maybe it'll work. Yes, disruption usually starts from the low end, but plenty of low-end alternatives die out without ever disrupting the high-end option.

Right now it's making crappy, unmaintainable code, and while you can make a lot of money with crappy, unmaintainable code, the need for good code hasn't gone away.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#440

the middle ground nobody talks about is using AI for the boring infrastructure stuff (stripe integration, auth boilerplate, static site scaffolding) and writing the actual business logic yourself. i've shipped like 3 side projects this year using that approach and the code quality is fine because im not vibe coding the parts that actually matter

Yeah, people do forget how much of our codebases is already slop. Like, anything that's in a "boilerplate" or "scaffold" is probably code that a human shouldn't be spending time writing in the first place.
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