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Missile defense is NP-complete

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431–440 of 446 posts

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#431
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cluster munitions are great against infantry in open field; less so against population centres equipped with advance warning systems. As it stands, they fail to even cause the damage worth offsetting by firing interceptors. The damage these inflict on Israel is not unsustainable, and they don't do much to create deterrence. Given a choice of conventional 500-800 kg warhead or cluster munitions warhead, I think that t…

Depends, blanketing Ben Gurion (or any airbase) with parked aircraft on the tarmac with carpet munition is a really bad day. But yes, against protected targets cluster munitions do not achieve much. If you have relatively few low-precision missiles, using single warheads means you are risking achieving NO damage (easier to intercept, a good chance that it will hit nothing), with a cluster munition you are guaranteein…

Tarmacs are really hard to hit exactly, especially so when you fire from 1500 miles away. Each angular second turns into a big miss. Also, the launch goes towards the area where GPS denial is assumed. This denial can come in many forms.

There were reports about three small aircraft being damaged in Ben Gurion, one of them caught a fire. I guess three millionaires will have nothing to fly until they collect their insurance money.

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Inertial_Reference_Sp... This is what we had to build in the 60s to allow a missile to know where it physically existed precisely enough to allow it to 50% of the time hit within a circle of ~50 meters. When you get to certain points in physics, certain energy regimes, you no longer are building machines or tools or something mass market. You are building artisan scientific inst…

> This is what we had to build in the 60s... >> drift less than 1.5×10−5 °/h Wow...just wow. Not a GNC engineer, but that drift spec strikes me as exceptionally good today, let alone the 60s. EDIT: > Even modern laser ring gyros do not even share a dinner table with the precision and accuracy of the above singular component of the Peacekeeper ICBMs, and that was a long time ago. No kidding; full transparency, that wa…

It's a frankly insane piece of engineering, and that insanity is only multiplied by the fact that it works, and multiplied again by the fact that it works exceptionally well. No gimbal lock. No ball bearings.

"Actually it's really easy to precisely know your position and velocity in space, just float a special metal sphere in some fluid and touch it super gently"

I only know how exceptional it is because the video I linked above compared it's declassified specs to publicly available ring laser gyro specs. I am not a domain expert. There might be military inertial systems that beat even that nowadays. The US has been over-reliant on GPS guidance which is demonstrating it's weakness, but we used to be very very good at inertial platforms. However, that platform was so precise and accurate that improving it won't actually increase your missile accuracy that much. So maybe we have cheaper versions.

You probably know this but for trivia: Another standard ballistic missile position fix system is that they boost themselves up into space, and then take a moment to look at the stars, which is a remarkably workable system itself.

These floating balls of magic were essentially hand built, hand calibrated, with some components having upwards of 10k tests for verification. They cost several million dollars per system back in the 80s.

This is where a large portion of your tax dollars in the defense industry go: Paying very skilled americans to do very precise labor here in the US. General dynamics for example is about half the size of Pepsico, and takes a similar profit margin, but instead of overpriced water and potato products, we sometimes get the most advanced metrology money can produce.

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#433
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a direct conflict with China, the ICBM exchange would destroy the F35s on the ground.

There won't be a direct conflict with China, at least not in the last 10 years, because the US first needs to complete de-coupling his economy from China more, re-industralize in-shore or at least near-shore, and dramatically build up its military and logistic capabilities to fight an expeditionary campaign on China shores. China also is not stupid, and no matter how much they posture, they won't invade Taiwan.

This analysis is insane.

No one is invading China. Coupled or de-coupled is a completely irrelevant consideration. People think MAGA are crazy, but no one is suicidal. A war with China would be over in a matter of hours. And anyone who did not manage to get to Africa or extreme South America before the outbreak of hostilities would have a great chance of dying. The only question is will death be quick in a blast, or slow as you try to walk out of the US.

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

APKWS interceptor is about 35K USD and works much better than drone-based interceptors. The problem is to scale the production, training and deployment. Another problem is detection. One needs wast multilayered system that US military missed to build as big stationary radars are very hard to defend.

Air-launched interceptors like this have the problem on relying on a super-expensive manned carrier (fighter or helicopter). The intercept cost is now not only the cost of the interceptor, but also the cost of the flying hours of the launching platform, and the risk of losing the launching platform. If you equip even some of your Shaheds with AA missiles (cheap manpads with autonomous IR target acquisition and guidan…

APKWS launching from air is a stop-gap measure in any case. The detection range for Shahed-type drones is tenths of kilometers, not hundreds, like with fighter jets or big missiles. One cannot have that many fighter jets in the air all the time even without the threat of manpads.

But ground-based platforms work just fine and cheap enough to scale up the deployment to cover the big area.

The big advantage of APKWS over interceptor drones is the rocket engine, they are much faster and can catch Shaheds within much bigger radius or within much smaller timeframe than interceptor drones.

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air-launched interceptors like this have the problem on relying on a super-expensive manned carrier (fighter or helicopter). The intercept cost is now not only the cost of the interceptor, but also the cost of the flying hours of the launching platform, and the risk of losing the launching platform. If you equip even some of your Shaheds with AA missiles (cheap manpads with autonomous IR target acquisition and guidan…

APKWS launching from air is a stop-gap measure in any case. The detection range for Shahed-type drones is tenths of kilometers, not hundreds, like with fighter jets or big missiles. One cannot have that many fighter jets in the air all the time even without the threat of manpads. But ground-based platforms work just fine and cheap enough to scale up the deployment to cover the big area. The big advantage of APKWS ove…

First, if I understand correctly, APKWS is laser guided (one of the reasons it is relatively cheap is cheap simple guidance), it needs the carrier to designate the target.

Second, it is rather short range, and that range is helped significantly by the speed and altitude of the launching platform. Launching from the ground upwards would significantly reduce its range, which is anyway just a few km.

Due to the short range, you will need a densely distributed significant numbers of them, and still be in danger of saturation attack (the attacker can saturate one route, you have to be ready for all possible routes). Having a carrier platform allows the missiles to be quickly brought where they are needed, so overall you need much less of them (still too much, as having enough carriers in air imposes limits as well).

You can have longer-range ground missiles, but then the costs rise. Also, I am not sure how feasible/robust is to laser designate air targets from the ground. I suspect it does not work over longer distances, i.e. you need a more sophisticated and costly guidance system/sensor suite on the missile.

The beauty of an anti-drone drone is that you have a much more robust human-assisted guidance, for cheap (camera and communication link). With advances to AI, even that human and communication link are becoming obsolete...

With rocket propelled missile you have much faster closing speed, and quite limited energy budget - essentially you have to make a correct decision fast and precisely, otherwise the missile is wasted. With a drone, everything is slower and easier to correct.

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The marginal cost of a fighter aircraft to shoot down a drone flying slow in a straight line would be minimal, especially compared with the expense of each guided counter-rocket. As for being targets themselves, the drones would be in enemy airspace so who/what is going to target the fighters?

I don't see how you realistically get airframe cost below $200k; you need basically a cropduster with a bunch of electronic equipment and weapon systems on top. That's worth 10 attack drones at least (realistically, US military would probably pay several times that). > As for being targets themselves, the drones would be in enemy airspace so who/what is going to target the fighters? Something like a sidewinder strapp…

> 10 attack drones

It seems as if you anticipate airplanes being destroyed at the same rate as drones? You're right, that doesn't work.

But the idea of airplanes with machine guns is it is cheap to destroy the drones.

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shahed drones have a maximum range of 25000 km [bbc_1]. The distance from e.g. Isfahan to Tel-Aviv is ~1592 km [google]. Shaheds can reach Israrel from Iran. As to them all being intercepted, in the 12-day war that seemed to be the plan, i.e. force Israel to waste interceptors on cheap drones [bbc_2]. That seems to have changed in the current conflict. _______________ [bbc_1] With a maximum range of 2,500km it could…

You need an edit on your first range (typo). 25Mm is amazing, nowhere is too far away (except the moon).

Well spotted, my bad, too late now.

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#438

>Hence, for one warhead, a defender can launch 4 interceptors and have a 96% chance of successfully intercepting the incoming warhead. >Unfortunately, those numbers are optimistic. This part worth stressing, ceiling for more performant missiles, i.e. faster, terminal maneuvering, decoys are geometrically harder to intercept. Past mach ~10 terminal and functionally impossible because intercept kinematics will break in…

That goes both ways. Terminal manoeuvring gets difficult as speeds increase, too. Besides, higher tier threats are intercepted outside the atmosphere, where it would be prohibitively expensive (in mass and accuracy) for RVs to manoeuvre. Your SSPK is way WAY too low. Also, the math on interceptions changes completely with multiple KKVs per interceptor (see NGI). Decoys don't work even at the highest end (ICBMs), see…

Terminal maneuvering vs interceptor kinematics difficult don't scale same at same rate with speed increase, a few Gs on reentry is magnified on interceptor end, the physics is not fair between attacker/defender.

Higher threats are not exo atmosphere & midcourse that NGI targets, actual speculative high end threats (since we talking about speculative NGI capabilities) are hypersonic glide in upper atmosphere, which NGI can't target. It's even more extreme intercept problem, the intercept math for those class of threats is on paper even more lopsided against defender.

NGI basically ensure US keeps pace with modern penetration aids proliferation, i.e NKR tier adversaries if they ever improve RVs + decoys from shit tier to mid tier. Chevaline was 50 years ago, not really relevant example, since issue was really economics of decoys vs just spamming mirv. Regardless, NGI trying to maintain 3/4/5 interceptor ratio instead of 30/40/50/100s against exo threats, which on spectrum is low/medium end. It does 0 against actual future highend threats of glide phase interception, an entirely different category.

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That goes both ways. Terminal manoeuvring gets difficult as speeds increase, too. Besides, higher tier threats are intercepted outside the atmosphere, where it would be prohibitively expensive (in mass and accuracy) for RVs to manoeuvre. Your SSPK is way WAY too low. Also, the math on interceptions changes completely with multiple KKVs per interceptor (see NGI). Decoys don't work even at the highest end (ICBMs), see…

Terminal maneuvering vs interceptor kinematics difficult don't scale same at same rate with speed increase, a few Gs on reentry is magnified on interceptor end, the physics is not fair between attacker/defender. Higher threats are not exo atmosphere & midcourse that NGI targets, actual speculative high end threats (since we talking about speculative NGI capabilities) are hypersonic glide in upper atmosphere, which NG…

Again, the unfairness goes both ways: RVs need to carry substantial payloads, whereas KKVs only need DACS and sensing. THAAD KKVs weigh about 50kg; most effective payloads, even nuclear, would weigh substantially more.

Hypersonic gliders can't be nearly as numerous as ballistic RVs because physics, and they are getting their own interceptor (GPI).

I think this conversation would benefit from splitting theatre ballistic threats (evidently, those are now being effectively countered without 30 to 1 ratios) from strategic threats. For strategic threats, the logic is substantially more complex: even 50% intercept rate greatly complicates counter-force strikes and is valuable. In practice, the rate is substantially higher than 50%.

Chevaline wasn't the only program, the US had its own they didn't end up deploying. Both countries concluded that effective decoys end up weighing roughly the same as warheads.

Re: Missile defense is NP-complete

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terminal maneuvering vs interceptor kinematics difficult don't scale same at same rate with speed increase, a few Gs on reentry is magnified on interceptor end, the physics is not fair between attacker/defender. Higher threats are not exo atmosphere & midcourse that NGI targets, actual speculative high end threats (since we talking about speculative NGI capabilities) are hypersonic glide in upper atmosphere, which NG…

Again, the unfairness goes both ways: RVs need to carry substantial payloads, whereas KKVs only need DACS and sensing. THAAD KKVs weigh about 50kg; most effective payloads, even nuclear, would weigh substantially more. Hypersonic gliders can't be nearly as numerous as ballistic RVs because physics, and they are getting their own interceptor (GPI). I think this conversation would benefit from splitting theatre ballist…

The unfairness goes both ways, but one way MUCH harder.

On terminal interception, RV weight less critical factor - the unfairness is RV kinematic requirements simply lower than KKV kinematic requirements, and ceiling where KKVs physically cannot intercept regardless of weight / sensor / motor quality is below theoretic ceiling for RV, and closer offense moves towards that ceiling (+speed, +maneuver even minor jiggles) the worse KKV approach (and economics) breaks down. Weight might be proxy for cost, i.e. salvo + interception math. Which is fair, but then we don't know NGI cost and we don't know if adversaries can simply build more missiles at lower cost to extend exchange ratio gap anyway.

On midcourse vs hypersonic, GPI like DEW vs high-end missiles is hypothetical/speculative interception stack, i.e. low technology readiness level, given actual harder interception physics / maneuver gap for non vacuum vs vacuum midcourse, there's no indication it will ever "work", i.e. stuck in TRL >In practice, the rate is substantially higher than 50%.

For exo atmosphere midcourse, in practice we don't have any solid data (more accurately in on paper none actually exist) on midcourse interception rates vs highend, i.e. tier1 missiles + penaids. Only data we have is highly scripted/goldilocks FTM44 without penaids on maximum convenient interception conditions/geometry. Since SPKK doesn't scale linearly vs missile or penaid performance, SPKK of single digit approaching 0 is not out of question for missiles with complex penaids or improved kinematics.

> decoys end up weighing roughly the same as warheads.

Due to tech limitations 30-50 years ago. Modern missiles have massively reduced size of penaids vs payload, i.e. Iskander miniaturized (6) EW/active spoofing penaids is like ~5% of the warhead weight. High end ICBMs speculated to have 30-50.

Chevaline/early decoys were bruteforce mass/physics mimicry methods, and tier1 powers like like UK/US figured better off stuffing actual warheads for strategic/nuclear under those conditions. VS less capable adversaries who may have to go warhead + penaid route due to limitations, i.e. lower end adversaries only ground/TEL leg and limited nuclear warheads #s, who'd much better off spreading limited warheads over many missiles with penaids then hedge on MIRV stuffing.

>splitting ... strategic threats

I think more useful to split strategic threats by levels, NGI is designed to stay at pace or ahead of mid/low end adversaries modernizing ballistic threats... which granted is basically everyone except PRC and maybe RU. VS high end adversaries, if we look at the speculative roadmap of hypersonic glide vs glide phase interceptor and high end penaids, in terms of technology readiness and implementation, the gap could very well be increasing, i.e. PLARF with mass hypersonic glides 5-10 years from now has much higher chance of overmatching GPI progress. AFAIK, there isn't even a PROPOSED midcourse interception solution(golden dome mostly tracking) vs powered glide (i.e. scramjets) with sustained maneuverability. The TLDR is short/medium term forecasted missile defense (i.e. GPI is 2035s) is not even in the same room as deployed/fielded highend missile offense (assuming they work) and not in the same building as forecasted (highend) short/medium term missile offense.

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