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The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

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Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#431

Post by ozmodiar »

WarmWash wrote: post #418
Throaway1985123 wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are in it for themselves...when it comes to participating in our capitalist economic system. The 2nd part is often left unsaid.

Humans overwhelming group themselves with groups that provide themselves with the best value prop. When the individuals circumstances change, which causes the value prop of the group to change, people overwhelming move to a new group. It's not a capitalist or socialist thing.

I'm having trouble thinking of groups of people who are even able to change members outside of modern capitalism. Through most of human history we've been stuck with our group or tribe. Heck, I see people stick with groups that are toxic to them just out of the sense of connection it gives.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#432

Post by bigstrat2003 »

roesel wrote: post #245
SirMaster wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No one cares about how the code is written. People definitely do care. Nobody wants vibe-coded buggy slop code for their game. They want well designed and optimized code that runs the game smoothly on reasonable hardware and without a bunch of bugs.

No one wants _buggy slop code_ for their game, but ultimately no one cares whether is has been hand crafted or vibe-coded. As proof, ask yourself which of the following two options you would prefer: 1. buggy code that was hand-written 2. optimized code that was vibe-coded I'll bet most people will choose 2.

> No one wants _buggy slop code_ for their game, but ultimately no one cares whether is has been hand crafted or vibe-coded.

Right. And vibe coding is only capable of producing buggy slop code, therefore people won't want something which is vibe coded.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#433

Post by bartread »

bee_rider wrote: post #334
morissette wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here I thought the most popular game of all time was Soccer or Super Mario Bros 3

I think they meant videogame, ruling out soccer. It looks like the Super Mario Bros series has a good showing, but it is the first one. I bet 3 falls into an unlucky valley where the game-playing population was not quite as large as it is now, but it isn’t early enough to get the extreme nostalgia of the first one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_gam... Of course this assumes sales=popularity…

I dunno: I think SMB 3 gets plenty of plaudits and is widely agreed to be the best SMB on the NES.

Frankly, all three of the NES games hold up well even today, but 3 is for me the pinnacle even though very late in the life of the console, particularly in North America and Europe. This wouldn’t have helped sales with the SNES about to drop but it nevertheless was very successful.

Absolutely one of the greats.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#434

Post by bigstrat2003 »

wepple wrote: post #381
LetsGetTechnicl wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also end up freeing us from every commercial dependency we have. Write your own OS, your own mail app, design your own machinery to farm with. Lmfao LLM's can barely count rows in a spreadsheet accurately, this is just batshit crazy. edit: also the solution here isn't that every one writes their own software (based on open source code available on the internet no doubt) we just use that open source software,…

Batshit crazy? 3 years ago LLMs couldn’t solve 7x8. Now they’re building complex applications in one shot, solving previously unsolved math and science problems. Heck, one company built a (prototype but functional) web browser And you say it’s crazy that in the future it’ll be able to build a mail app or OS?

> Heck, one company built a (prototype but functional) web browser

No, they built something which claimed to be a web browser but which didn't even compile. Every time someone says "look an LLM did this impressive sounding thing" it has turned out to be some kind of fraud. So yeah, the idea that these slop machines could build an OS is insane.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#435

Post by bigstrat2003 »

theshrike79 wrote: post #140
flohofwoe wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'Handmade Network' is essentially this (in a good way though) - and long before LLMs got good enough for code-generation - instead as a counter philosophy to the soulless "enterprise software development" where a feature that could be implemented in 10 lines of code is wrapped in 1000 lines of "industry-best-practices" boilerplate. Programming via LLMs is just the logical conclusion to this niche of industrialize…

I'm kinda leaning towards the analogy that LLMs are to programming as textile machines were to the loom. People still pay for hand-knit fabrics (there's one place in Italy that makes silk by hand and it costs 5 figures per foot), but the vast majority is machine made. Same thing will happen to code, unless the bubble bursts really badly. Most bulk API Glue CRUD stuff and basic web UI work will be mostly automated and…

> I'm kinda leaning towards the analogy that LLMs are to programming as textile machines were to the loom.

The difference is that textile machines reliably produce working cloth. LLMs do not, and indeed probably cannot, reliably produce working software. Instead they generate something which randomly has bugs sprinkled throughout such that a human needs to review the whole thing (which negates the gains). This would be like if a textile machine produced cloth that randomly would rip if you tried to use it for anything. Nobody would have accepted such a textile machine, just like nobody should accept LLMs.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#436

Post by bigstrat2003 »

thendrill wrote: post #162
cure_42 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just sad. If your passion for creating something you can be proud of is entirely propped up by imaginary sex appeal that not even most teenagers would believe exists, it's no surprise you'd arrive at such a cynical, pathetic conclusion. Your perspective is a path with only one logical end. That nothing you do or think or believe matters unless someone you're attracted to finds it attractive. That is not how I…

Yeh cool story. But being passionate about a hobby is not gonna pay my bills... When I charge a customer for a solution they don't care about how elegant my code is. They just care if it works for solving their problem...

Sure... but the slop that LLMs spit out isn't going to solve their problem, which is what they care about.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#437

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #338
wolvesechoes wrote: post #155

I am bit tired of such discussions. I don't care if LLMs are good at coding or bad at it (in my experience the answer is "it depends"). I don't care how good are they at anything else. What matters in the end is that this tech is not to empower a common person (although it could). It is not here to make our lives better, more worthwhile, more satisfying (it could do these as well). It is there to reduce our agency, t…

This argument can be used, and has been used, about every innovation in automation since the dawn of the industrial revolution.

[deleted]

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#438

Post by vor_ »

raincole wrote: post #34

> Video games stand out as one market where consumers have pushed back effectively No, it's simply untrue. Players only object against AI art assets. And only when they're painfully obvious. No one cares about how the code is written. If you actually read the words used in Steam AI survey you'll know Steam has completely caved in for AI-gen code as well. It's specifically worded like this: > content such as artwork,…

> If you actually read the words used in Steam AI survey you'll know Steam has completely caved in for AI-gen code as well.

And if you actually read the article, you'd see it addressed that.

> Yeah, exactly. And LLM help developers save time from writing the same thing that has be done by other developers for a thousand times.

Like a library?

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#439

Post by cweagans »

xerox13ster wrote: post #305
bombcar wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're quasi-generated with random elements and fixed elements - similarly to early Diablo procedural generation.

That’s not the same procedural generation as GPT or diffusion and you know it. It’s not even in the same ballpark as Elite, NMS, terraria, or Minecraft. The levels are all hand drawn, not generated by an algorithm, even if they’re shuffled. Eric Barone, the developer, has publicly said as much. Are you calling him a liar? It’s like the difference between sudoku/crossword and conways game of life

The parent comment didn't seem to say anything offensive. Why so hostile?

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#440

Post by wepple »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #434
wepple wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batshit crazy? 3 years ago LLMs couldn’t solve 7x8. Now they’re building complex applications in one shot, solving previously unsolved math and science problems. Heck, one company built a (prototype but functional) web browser And you say it’s crazy that in the future it’ll be able to build a mail app or OS?

> Heck, one company built a (prototype but functional) web browser No, they built something which claimed to be a web browser but which didn't even compile. Every time someone says "look an LLM did this impressive sounding thing" it has turned out to be some kind of fraud. So yeah, the idea that these slop machines could build an OS is insane.

I personally observe AI creation phenomenally good code, much better than I can write. At insane speed, with minimal oversight. And today’s AI is the worst we will ever have.

Progress in AI can easily be measured by the speed at which the goalposts move - from “it can’t count” to “yeah but the entire browser it wrote didnt compile in the CI pipeline”

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