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Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

bbc.com

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Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#431

Post by SanjayMehta »

myko wrote: post #300
SanjayMehta wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuland confessed to spending 5 billion USD on Ukraine. She was caught on camera distributing cookies and sandwiches to the rioters. She was caught on tape discussing the next Ukrainian govt. And dissing the EU. https://2009-2017.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2013/dec/218804.htm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbjNJbjEy04 https://youtu.be/L2XNN0Yt6D8

US being behind something (pulling the strings) is way different than what you're talking about here, really you're just proving my point.

How is it different? And I've lost track of what your point was in the first place. Unless it was to dodge responsibility for your government's illegal actions and war crimes.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#432

Post by SanjayMehta »

vcryan wrote: post #266
reliabilityguy wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US intelligence flip flopped on this issue every Friday. Given the high stakes situation, I personally believe that Iran did work on nuclear weapons. There is no reason whatsoever to enrich uranium beyond like 20% if its not for military purposes in such quantities. Saying that others are NPCs is interesting. How do you know that you are not an NPC?

I don't understand. If US, Israel, Pakistan, etc can all have nuclear weapons, why can't Iran?

Because Iran has oil.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#433

Post by reliabilityguy »

tehjoker wrote: post #430
reliabilityguy wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They hate the government that is trying to destroy their entire society. Given Irans track record wrt women rights, and inability of Iranians to accept violence toward their women, IR doesn’t need the US or anyone else to destroy their society. > Stop attacking a country half-way around the world, they will stop even thinking about us. Why would they? IR is ruled by radical Muslims who believe in spreading the rule…

Any society will collapse if deprived of essential goods by an external force. Cultural practices that we disagree with can be remediated through peaceful means or at least settled by Iranians. It's not like women aren't capable of resistance or their own political voice. We can support change in Iranian society without calling for the destruction of their government by any means necessary. I presume you also wish to…

> Any society will collapse if deprived of essential goods by an external force.

IR is not deprived of essential goods. They are trading with all the neighbors and many international partners.

> Cultural practices that we disagree with can be remediated through peaceful means or at least settled by Iranians. It's not like women aren't capable of resistance or their own political voice.

Do you mean cultural practice of beating women to death for refusal to wear hijab? What is exactly the voice these women have?

> I presume you also wish to invade U.S. ally Saudi Arabia.

No, I am not. FWIW saudis seem to be totally fine with their ruling family. Iranians, on the other hand, are not. There is a huge difference between what we see in Iran, and what we see in SA. Moreover, saudis do no chant “death to america”, do not believe in the spread of Islamic revolution, and are not working on nuclear weapons.

> I also presume you also spend all day thinking about how you wish to destroy random African countries you barely know the name of.

Can you explain to me how did you get from me pointing out that IR is a regime governed by the idea of spreading Islamic revolution and random African countries?

> You believe in spreading "democracy" like a French revolutionary from the early 1800s.

lol no. You can’t spread democracy if locals don’t believe in democracy. Iranians believe in democracy, and they do have a chance once the regime is gone, or, at least they give up their nukes, and stop enrichment.

If Iran has nukes, Saudis and others in the region would want nukes. I think we need to have fewer nukes in the world and not more.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#434

Post by Razengan »

Betelbuddy wrote: post #16
Razengan wrote: post #12

Sorry about the whataboutery but it's "funny" how chaos in non Western-allied countries gets so much coverage, even when it doesn't affect us, but shit like the people of France's New Caledonia trying to get independence doesn't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6S1AFh88PE I didn't even know about that, just that it was a beautiful place and looked it up one day to fantasize about a potential future vacation, and saw…

You mean France's New Caledonia who already had three! referendums, and three times voted to remain part of France and has a new one planned for 2026? That one? Or is it something else going on there? When China knocks at the door of New Caledonia - https://www.aspi.org.au/report/when-china-knocks-door-new-ca...

I'm talking about the news coverage. We hear more about the riots and shit in "them" countries than the riots and police killing civilians in Western countries.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#435

Post by reliabilityguy »

SanjayMehta wrote: post #432
vcryan wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. If US, Israel, Pakistan, etc can all have nuclear weapons, why can't Iran?

Because Iran has oil.

I think it has more to do with nukes than oil. North Korea is a good example that once you have nukes, no one can touch you. No one wants more nukes, especially in the hands of IR, in this world.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#436

Post by cardanome »

reliabilityguy wrote: post #416
cardanome wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Palestinian Authority is Fatah and yes they are forced by Israel to suppress dissent. As for Hamas > Human Rights Watch met with the Palestinian Authority Intelligence Services in Ramallah, but was unable to accept an offer from Hamas authorities to meet in Gaza because Israel refused to grant permits for senior Human Rights Watch officials to enter the Gaza Strip for this purpose. Israeli authorities also reject…

> The Palestinian Authority is Fatah and yes they are forced by Israel to suppress dissent. So, they still choose to do it, right? > As for Hamas How Israelis refusal to admit these officials to meet Hamas’s leadership makes the crimes committed by Hamas not true?

> So, they still choose to do it, right?

This discussion started with you saying how bad Hamas was for executing Fatah collaborators in 2007 so not sure what point you are making other than agreeing with Hamas.

> How Israelis refusal to admit these officials to meet Hamas’s leadership makes the crimes committed by Hamas not true?

Inviting Humans Rights Watch does not seem like the behavior of an organization that has crimes to hide. Considering it was not possible to enter Gaza, the fact finding was limited and so it is not conclusive.

Also Humans Rights Watch had to criticize "both sides" because of political pressure. It is a move to seem impartial.

Hamas does not oppress its people. It couldn't survive a day without the support of its people. It kills collaborators as any resistance movement needs to do. Nothing wrong with that.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#437

Post by martin-t »

c22 wrote: post #410
martin-t wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the right tool Keep in mind this needs to be judged separately in the legal, practical and moral dimension. For example a state might determine that a person _legally_ deserves to spend 10 years in prison. But the same state will attack you in turn if you abduct that person and hold them for 10 years in similar conditions to prison because _practically_, it weakens the state's monopoly on violence, even if _morally…

I don't believe that punishment can be just, and ergo I don't see a moral axis on which to judge violent actions for this purpose. I might concede the use of threatened violence as a means of control, but I don't see any pragmatic way to accomplish this without at least occasional actual punishment so it's a bit non sequiter. It's likely our views are divergent enough that we wont come to a consensus on this, but I a…

> I don't believe that punishment can be just

I've encountered such opinions before but never cared to engage with them since they seem utterly alien to me. Can you give me a summary of your opinions or links to some materials?

There are multiple goals to a punishment - e.g.:

- Deterrence - Protection of others / prevention of re-offense - Removal of aggressor from community to minimize further trauma for the victim by having to interact with him - Restitution - Retribution - Vindication - Removing any gains from the offense from the aggressor - Further disadvantaging of the aggressor to make up for `expected_gains * probability_of_getting_caught` - Further disadvantaging of the aggressor to put negative evolutionary pressure on such behavior - Separation of the aggressor from others to prevent him from normalizing / spreading his behavior

These few are just off the top of my head, not all apply to all offenses, and not everyone will agree all of these are desired by their favorite society. But how do you achieve any, let along most, of them without punishment?

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#438

Post by martin-t »

c22 wrote: post #414
martin-t wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why anonymity is important. We need reliable anonymous communication as yet another source of friction (drink!) which the state needs to overcome to subjugate the people. And that's why so many states, even western democracies, are trying to oppose it now using children or terrorists as an excuse. The authoritarians and wannabe-dictators (most of whom will never achieve their goal or even publicly state it) ar…

Using violence against someone is the ultimate authoritarian act, so for one side this is business as usual while for the other this is the epitome of hypocrisy. Your mention of anonymity reminds me of assasination politics [0], which is an idea I found enticing in the past. However I've since come to the opinion that such a system is neither optimal nor necessary, though I believe a similar outcome may be inevitable…

> epitome of hypocrisy

Only in single-step moral systems (one which judges actions as moral or immoral solely based on those actions in the moment and not what preceded them).

I have a multi-step moral system. Basically any unjustified intentional harm to a person justified proportional retaliation. Unjustified means it is not harm which is being caused as punishment to a previous offense. And proportional means that it shouldn't be too weak, neither too strong. IMO the optimum is causing something like 1.5-3x more suffering/"disadvantagement". However, it is important to signal to both the original aggressor and any potential witnesses why this is being done so that one is not mistaken for an original aggressor himself.

I am also a fan of judging others by their own moral principles. Basically, if someone thinks it is OK to, for example, limit my freedom or harm me (for various reasons or in various circumstances), I apply the same rules to him and it is therefore OK for me to limit his freedom or harm him (for similar reasons or in similar circumstances).

Either system leads to similar outcomes. (The first allows stronger response to offense, the second allows only mirroring).

Thanks for the link, it looks very interesting but it goes into my to-read list for today.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#439

Post by reliabilityguy »

cardanome wrote: post #436
reliabilityguy wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Palestinian Authority is Fatah and yes they are forced by Israel to suppress dissent. So, they still choose to do it, right? > As for Hamas How Israelis refusal to admit these officials to meet Hamas’s leadership makes the crimes committed by Hamas not true?

> So, they still choose to do it, right? This discussion started with you saying how bad Hamas was for executing Fatah collaborators in 2007 so not sure what point you are making other than agreeing with Hamas. > How Israelis refusal to admit these officials to meet Hamas’s leadership makes the crimes committed by Hamas not true? Inviting Humans Rights Watch does not seem like the behavior of an organization that has…

> Hamas does not oppress its people.

Of course not, and the report is made up.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#440

Post by thrance »

reliabilityguy wrote: post #418
tehjoker wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They hate the government that is trying to destroy their entire society. Stop attacking a country half-way around the world, they will stop even thinking about us.

> They hate the government that is trying to destroy their entire society. Given Irans track record wrt women rights, and inability of Iranians to accept violence toward their women, IR doesn’t need the US or anyone else to destroy their society. > Stop attacking a country half-way around the world, they will stop even thinking about us. Why would they? IR is ruled by radical Muslims who believe in spreading the rule…

Now apply this argument to Saudi Arabia and ask yourself why Iran is on the receiving end of this propaganda and not the former. America gives zero fucks about the oppressed minorities of this world, in fact, it is to blame for a lot of this oppression. War and starvation never improved any society.
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