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Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

bbc.com

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Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#431

Post by stephen_g »

kstenerud wrote: post #148
jandrewrogers wrote: post #71

This just adds confusion as to the purpose of all this. The motivation behind the liquid limits is that there are extremely powerful explosives that are stable water-like liquids. Average people have never heard of them because they aren’t in popular lore. There has never been an industrial or military use, solids are simpler. Nonetheless, these explosives are easily accessible to a knowledgeable chemist like me. The…

It's about making people feel safe. We're not rational beings, so what do you do about an irrational fear? You invent a magical thing that protects from that irrational fear. You're orders of magnitude more likely to die in a road accident, but people don't fear that. They fear terrorist attacks far more. You can't protect against an opponent who's motivated to learn the inherent vulnerabilities of our systems, many…

A lot more people I've talked to about it say the theatre makes them feel uncomfortable and intimidated rather than making them feel safe. Airport security staff being so gruff and expecting people to know what to do (which casual travellers often don't), then not being able to properly explain what to do and shouting at people...

I really don't buy that the illusion of safety is high on anyone's priority list, it's more that a bureaucracy will grow as much as it can, employing more and more people who might not have better prospects, and no politicians want to be seen to be "comprimising people's safety" by cutting things back. Then "lobbying" from those selling equipment and detection machines probably helps everything keep going.

If it was actually cut back to a proper risk-assessed point of what's strictly necessary, people going thorugh would think "is this safe not having as much security" for about 30 seconds and then never think of it again.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#432

Post by guitarbill »

littlecranky67 wrote: post #357
dingdongditchme wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it has been such a godsend flying out of Frankfurt where they have the new scanners and you don't have to empty out your bag anymore. So much smoother. Then I fly back and get all annoyed at the other airports. I was told Oslo airport is holding out until it becomes regulation to use the new scanners. Security-Theater is still what it is. It is super weak imho, despite never having seriously attempted a heist or tryi…

Germany has a very sad and weak airport security story. The security personal are hired and paid by the state (Land), and thus the state plans their capacity and workflow. The airport owner (i.e. FRAport) has no say in their internal work organization, as it is basically contracted out policework. For whatever reason, most german Airports I regularly use, use the same machine and broken workflow: There is only a limi…

> Germany has a very sad and weak airport security story.

The system you describe is hardly unique to Germany, so this just reads like hyperbole or inexperience travelling.

> Classic example of government run workflows

This I can agree with.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#433

Post by sho_hn »

0x3f wrote: post #425
teiferer wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think they find a white guy flying out of China to be a likely terrorist? What does skin color have to do with this? And yes, oppressed groups in China, like the Uyghurs, have support in the west. Among white people. Maybe the winning strategy is comprehensive mass surveillance which flags you in a database long before even showing up at the airport and then the security theater just provides a suitable pret…

> What does skin color have to do with this? It affects their perception of how risky you are, obviously. Accurate or not. In fact, security tech in China will openly classify you by race/ethnicity.

Of course according to the US government terrorists are now white US citizens, so you could say they have become more open-minded.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#434

Post by retired »

stephen_g wrote: post #212
BrenBarn wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously doubt that most people are happy with the tradeoffs of safety vs. convenience provided by the TSA. The general idea of x-ray, metal detectors, sure, that's all good. But the stuff with taking off your shoes, small containers of liquid, etc., no. I think if we reverted to a simpler system with fewer oddly specific requirements layered on top, most people would not feel significantly less safe, but would fe…

The thing about shoes is just dumb anyway - I don't know if there was some period of time where it was required elsewhere around the world but I never experienced it. Literally the only times I've ever had to take off my shoes were during the two times I've visited the US (vs. a over a dozen trips to European and Asian countries). Liquid restrictions were also lifted in my country four or so years ago for domestic tr…

I have to take my sneakers off about three to four times a year while traveling around Europe.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#435

Post by mjmas »

closewith wrote: post #359
sethammons wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you drop a sarcasm tag? Anyone can make a fire on a plane as they allow lighters on a plane, and batteries, and any number of flammable objects. None of that is facing any scrutiny nor stopping crazy people from being crazy.

Flammable liquid and all high temperature lighters are forbidden, as are Li-ion batteries over 100kWh.

s/100kWh/100Wh/

But you can still have multiple batteries (I think up to 10 or so) as long as each individual one is less than 100Wh.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#436

Post by maxerickson »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #71

This just adds confusion as to the purpose of all this. The motivation behind the liquid limits is that there are extremely powerful explosives that are stable water-like liquids. Average people have never heard of them because they aren’t in popular lore. There has never been an industrial or military use, solids are simpler. Nonetheless, these explosives are easily accessible to a knowledgeable chemist like me. The…

2 part liquid explosives featured heavily in Die Hard with a Vengeance.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#437

Post by RA_Fisher »

closewith wrote: post #356
BrenBarn wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have we protected against the motivated terrorist, or only the motivated terrorist on an airplane?

Is your contention that there haven't been any terrorist attacks, therefore airport security isn't effective? Because over the last 25 years, there have been a _lot_ of "successful" terrorist attacks in the West, and none of them were on planes.

Exactly, air security has actually done a really good job over the last 25 years. I hope they keep improving it.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#438

Post by retired »

wouldbecouldbe wrote: post #363
jandrewrogers wrote: post #71

This just adds confusion as to the purpose of all this. The motivation behind the liquid limits is that there are extremely powerful explosives that are stable water-like liquids. Average people have never heard of them because they aren’t in popular lore. There has never been an industrial or military use, solids are simpler. Nonetheless, these explosives are easily accessible to a knowledgeable chemist like me. The…

Schiphol at Amsterdam had this for a year or so, you could bring any type of liquid and leave everything in the bag. But they reverted the liquid rule, if I remember correctly, because of the confusion it caused.

Schiphol has been very relaxed. I once had a water bottle with probably 200ml of water still in it in my bag. I was told to not do that again and they gave me the bottle back.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#439

Post by RA_Fisher »

troupo wrote: post #203
kstenerud wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about making people feel safe. We're not rational beings, so what do you do about an irrational fear? You invent a magical thing that protects from that irrational fear. You're orders of magnitude more likely to die in a road accident, but people don't fear that. They fear terrorist attacks far more. You can't protect against an opponent who's motivated to learn the inherent vulnerabilities of our systems, many…

> You can't protect against an opponent who's motivated to learn the inherent vulnerabilities of our systems, many of which can't be protected against due to the laws of physics and practicality Ah yes, the insidious opponent who learns the inherent vulnerability of ... huge crowds gathering before hand baggage screenings and TSA patdowns. And these crowds are only there only due to a permanent immovable physical fix…

Very true. The queues need to be improved.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#440

Post by closewith »

BrenBarn wrote: post #390
closewith wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your contention that there haven't been any terrorist attacks, therefore airport security isn't effective? Because over the last 25 years, there have been a _lot_ of "successful" terrorist attacks in the West, and none of them were on planes.

My point is that if improved airport security just shifts terrorist attacks to other places, the overall safety benefit is not as great as it may at first seem.

That's nonsense - if it was true, all anti-terrorism measures would be self-defeating, but they're not. Decades of aircraft-based terrorist attacks have been completely halted by airport security, and there's no been no correlated increase in other mass casualty events.
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