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Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

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Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#431

Post by throw1235435 »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #330
embedding-shape wrote: post #95

> But what was the fire inside you, when you coded till night to see your project working? It was building. I feel like this is not the same for everyone. For some people, the "fire" is literally about "I control a computer", for others "I'm solving a problem for others", and yet for others "I made something that made others smile/cry/feel emotions" and so on. I think there is a section of programmer who actually do…

This article is not about whether programming is fun, elegant, creative, or personally fulfilling. It is about business value. Programming exists, at scale, because it produces economic value. That value translates into revenue, leverage, competitive advantage, and ultimately money. For decades, a large portion of that value could only be produced by human labor. Now, increasingly, it cannot be assumed that this will…

Sure; I absolutely agree and more to the point SWE's and their ideologies compared to other professions have meant they are the first on the chopping block. But what do you tell those people; that they no longer matter? Do they still matter? How will they matter? They are no different than practitioners of any other craft - humans in general derive value partly from the value they can give to their fellow man.

If the local unskilled job matters more than a SWE now these people have gone from being worth something to society to being less of worth than someone unskilled with a job. At that point following from your logic I can assume their long term value is one of an unemployed person which to some people is negative. That isn't just an identity crash; its a crash potentially on their whole lives and livelihood. Even smart people can be in situations where it is hard to pivot (as you say mortgages, families, lives, etc).

I'm sure many of the SWE's here (myself included) are asking the same questions; and the answers are too pessimistic to admit public ally and even privately. Myself the joy of coding is taken away with AI in general, in that there is no joy doing something that a machine will be able to do better soon for me at least.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#432

Post by jstummbillig »

burgerone wrote: post #416

There's this infinite war between the two opposing sides. "It's going to change programming forever" vs "Why not just use your brain". I much prefer option two for all the good reasons. Saying that AI is awesome doesn't actually adress all its issues.

What is infinite about that (or any) war? Things always change and "just do/use x" consistently, eventually, does not win.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#433

Post by gjadi »

holoduke wrote: post #415
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right of course. For me there’s no flow state possible with LLM “coding”. That makes it feel miserable instead of joyous. Sitting around waiting while it spits out tokens that I then have to carefully look over and tweak feels like very hard work. Compared to entering flow and churning out those tokens myself, which feels effortless once I get going. Probably other people feel differently.

Well are you the super developer than never run into issues, challenges? For me and I think most developers, coding is like a continuous stream of problems you need to solve. For me a LLM is very useful, because I can now develop much faster. Don't have to think which sorting algoritm should be used or which trigonometric function I need for a specific case. My LLM buddy solves most of those issues.

When you don't know the answer to a question you ask an LLM, do you verify it or do you trust it?

Like, if it tells you merge sort is better on that particular problem, do you trust it or do you go through an analysis to confirm it really is?

I have a hard time trusting what I don't understand. And even more so if I realize later I've been fooled. Note that it's the same with human though. I think I only trust technical decision I don't understand when I deem the risk of being wrong low enough. Overwise I'll invest in learning and understanding enough to trust the answer.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#434

Post by Supermancho »

zahlman wrote: post #307
loubbrad wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there is a section of programmer who actually do like the actual typing of letters, numbers and special characters into a computer... Reminds me of this excerpt from Richard Hamming's book: > Finally, a more complete, and more useful, Symbolic Assembly Program (SAP) was devised—after more years than you are apt to believe during which most programmers continued their heroic absolute binary programming. At t…

I don't know what book you're talking about, but it seems that you intend to compare the switch to an AI-based workflow to using a higher-level language. I don't think that's valid at all. Nobody using Python for any ordinary purpose feels compelled to examine the resulting bytecode, for example, but a responsible programmer needs to keep tabs on what Claude comes up with, configure a dev environment that organizes t…

> you intend to compare the switch to an AI-based workflow to using a higher-level language.

That was the comparison made. AI is an eerily similar shift.

> I don't think that's valid at all.

I dont think you made the case by cherry picking what it can't do. This is exactly the same situation, as the time SAP appeared. There weren't symbols for every situation binary programmers were using at the time. This doesn't change the obvious and practical improvement that abstractions provided. Granted, I'm not happy about it, but I can't deny it either.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#435

Post by llmslave3 »

csmpltn wrote: post #414
simonw wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty common position: "I don't worry about getting left behind - it will only take a few weeks to catch up again". I don't think that's true. I'm really good at getting great results out of coding agents and LLMs. I've also been using LLMs for code on an almost daily basis since ChatGPT's release on November 30th 2022. That's more than three years ago now. Meanwhile I see a constant flow of complaints fro…

So where’s all of this cutting edge amazing and flawless stuff you’ve built in a weekend that everybody else couldn’t because they were too dumb or slow or clueless?

He's built lots of cool stuff with AI. Here is four random ones pulled from https://tools.simonwillison.net

- https://tools.simonwillison.net/bullish-bearish

- https://tools.simonwillison.net/user-agent

- https://tools.simonwillison.net/gemini-chat

- https://tools.simonwillison.net/token-usage

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#436

Post by kevin42 »

hollowturtle wrote: post #418
simonw wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty common position: "I don't worry about getting left behind - it will only take a few weeks to catch up again". I don't think that's true. I'm really good at getting great results out of coding agents and LLMs. I've also been using LLMs for code on an almost daily basis since ChatGPT's release on November 30th 2022. That's more than three years ago now. Meanwhile I see a constant flow of complaints fro…

I can't buy it because for many people like you it's always the other that uses the tools wrong, proving the contrary for skeptics that keep getting bad results from llms it simply is impossible with this narrative as the base of the discourse, eg "you're not using it well". I don't even get why you need to praise yourself so much being really good at using these tools, if not for building some tech influencer status…

Have you considered that maybe you aren't using it well? It's something that can and should be learned. It's a tool, and you can't expect to get the most out of a tool without really learning how to use it.

I've had this conversation with a few people so far, and I've offered to personally walk through a project of their choosing with them. Everyone who has done this has changed their perspective. You may not be convinced it will change the world, but if you approach it with an open mind and take the time to learn how to best use it, I'm 100% sure you will see that it has so much potential.

There are tons of youtube videos and online tutorials if you really want to learn.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#437

Post by user34283 »

csmpltn wrote: post #414
simonw wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty common position: "I don't worry about getting left behind - it will only take a few weeks to catch up again". I don't think that's true. I'm really good at getting great results out of coding agents and LLMs. I've also been using LLMs for code on an almost daily basis since ChatGPT's release on November 30th 2022. That's more than three years ago now. Meanwhile I see a constant flow of complaints fro…

So where’s all of this cutting edge amazing and flawless stuff you’ve built in a weekend that everybody else couldn’t because they were too dumb or slow or clueless?

Where is all the amazing, much better stuff you implemented manually meanwhile?

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#438

Post by llmslave3 »

rvz wrote: post #45
systemf_omega wrote: post #8

What I don't understand about this whole "get on board the AI train or get left behind" narrative, what advantage does an early adopter have for AI tools? The way I see it, I can just start using AI once they get good enough for my type of work. Until then I'm continuing to learn instead of letting my brain atrophy.

> What I don't understand about this whole "get on board the AI train or get left behind" narrative, what advantage does an early adopter have for AI tools? The ones pushing this narrative have either the following: * Invested in AI companies (which they will never disclose until they IPO / acquired) * Employees at AI companies that have stock options which they are effectively paid boosters around AGI nonsense. * Mi…

[dead]

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#439

Post by hollowturtle »

> How do I feel, about all the code I wrote that was ingested by LLMs? I feel great to be part of that, because I see this as a continuation of what I tried to do all my life: democratizing code, systems, knowledge. LLMs are going to help us to write better software, faster, and will allow small teams to have a chance to compete with bigger companies.

Every now and then I post the same exact comment here on HN, where the heck are the products then? Or where is the better outcome? The faster software? Let alone small team competing with bigger companies?

We are NOT anti AI we're exhausted to keep reading bs from ai astroturfers or wanna be ai tech influencers. It's so exhausting it's always your fault that you're not "using the tool properly", and you're going to be left behind. I'm not anti AI I just wish the bubble will pop so instead of fighting back bs from managers that "I read that on HN" I can go back coding with and without ai where applies to my needs

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#440

Post by tehnub »

simonw wrote: post #160
systemf_omega wrote: post #8

What I don't understand about this whole "get on board the AI train or get left behind" narrative, what advantage does an early adopter have for AI tools? The way I see it, I can just start using AI once they get good enough for my type of work. Until then I'm continuing to learn instead of letting my brain atrophy.

This is a pretty common position: "I don't worry about getting left behind - it will only take a few weeks to catch up again". I don't think that's true. I'm really good at getting great results out of coding agents and LLMs. I've also been using LLMs for code on an almost daily basis since ChatGPT's release on November 30th 2022. That's more than three years ago now. Meanwhile I see a constant flow of complaints fro…

I guess this applies to the type of developer who needs years, not weeks, to become proficient in say Python?
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