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How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#431

Post by krapp »

powerapple wrote: post #424
christophilus wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there was a time when the other side truly believed globalization and economic progress would turn the CCP into a democratic ally. Maybe both sides believed that for a while. What you see now is just the fragmented and incoherent remains of a failed philosophy that hasn’t yet come up with a coherent replacement, so we’re left adrift with no rational foreign policy from either side (in my opinion).

Why is China not an ally to the US other than the fact that it is a growing economy may be too big for US? What happens if US does not want to contain China any more? Are there fundamental issues which will put China and US as enemies?

China is communist and systemically atheist. That's basically it. Americans have always (or at least always since WW2) viewed communism as an existential evil and themselves as chosen by God to eradicate it from the world by any means necessary.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#432

Post by Hammershaft »

brazukadev wrote: post #429
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is how we approach everything. > This is because it is not only a government policy, but also a Chinese way of thinking. Nothing can interrupt this process. Is there any evidence that this kind of homogeneous "national character" is objectively real? Or is it just another story that people tell themselves?

was the American dream real at any point? Sounds like the same to me. Just a less individualistic dream.

I'm also skeptical of narratives of a pre-ordained future for America based on the American Dream or any other teleological belief system.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#433

Post by SirHumphrey »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #419
bad_haircut72 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also cant understand people being in denial about, or claiming other imagined moats or whatever. They're whipping the pants of us right now industrially, if the west has any advantages left its that we speak the truth about stuff even when it hurts, why live in denial. Also this stuff was figured out and built once before, other than the effort and resources involved (which China has lots of), why wouldn't someone…

A better question here is, would china be doing this, if "the west" wasn't threathening (and implementing) all kinds of sanctions on them, giving them no choice but to go "the bender way", by making their own chips (with blackjack, and hookers!).

Yes? The replication of the foreign capability domestically has been a driving force of China's economy for the last 20 - 30 years. No major R&D program in which china is catching up or even exceeding the western capability was started there, even the quite recent AI boom is mostly based on the work of American companies and labs.

If anything the constant underestimation of Chinese capabilities caused "the west" to react way to late.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#434

Post by wiether »

this_user wrote: post #238
bad_haircut72 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also cant understand people being in denial about, or claiming other imagined moats or whatever. They're whipping the pants of us right now industrially, if the west has any advantages left its that we speak the truth about stuff even when it hurts, why live in denial. Also this stuff was figured out and built once before, other than the effort and resources involved (which China has lots of), why wouldn't someone…

The west is still underestimating China. There is a great anecdote, I think it's from the book 'Apple in China', about their engineers visiting a Chinese production plant. Some changes needed to be made to the place. The Apple people estimated that that would take two weeks. They came back the next day. It was finished, the Chinese had done it overnight.

> The west is still underestimating China.

What do you mean by "The West"?

Because in Western Europe, nobody serious is underestimating China, quite the contrary. We know that there's no going back, and quality is no longer a criteria to choose local over imported.

Only bigotted people are still viewing China as a country mass-producing cheap crap.

I think that's the EVs that definitely sealed the deal in lots of people's minds.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#435

Post by davnicwil »

Hammershaft wrote: post #432
brazukadev wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

was the American dream real at any point? Sounds like the same to me. Just a less individualistic dream.

I'm also skeptical of narratives of a pre-ordained future for America based on the American Dream or any other teleological belief system.

It's always felt pretty intuitive to me that shared goals in a culture should have some real effect on outcomes.

It doesn't mean absolutely everyone takes part, of course, but it does mean it's a 'thing' that people may take part in with support from many of those around them if they choose.

Looking at the inverse: If you're going against the cultural wind, you're just going to have a much harder time doing whatever it is.

It just seems like this must show up in outcomes, it would be strange if it didn't.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#436

Post by Johanx64 »

nebula8804 wrote: post #284
this_user wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The west is still underestimating China. There is a great anecdote, I think it's from the book 'Apple in China', about their engineers visiting a Chinese production plant. Some changes needed to be made to the place. The Apple people estimated that that would take two weeks. They came back the next day. It was finished, the Chinese had done it overnight.

I often wonder what is it that's driving the Chinese to work themselves to death to get this stuff done? Surely there must be some limit. I guess we can see it in the low birth rates, the youth unemployment, and I guess the desire to just survive because there's just so many people there. But still, I just don't get how Chinese just keep going and going. What is their end goal on a person to person level? Are they ju…

This really isn't that different from South Korea / Japan work culture isn't it?

Atleast as far as hours clocked in at work is concerned, no?

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#438

Post by [deleted] »

scotty79 wrote: post #122

It's kind of nasty that a fresh society of capable people has the drive to achieve technological excellence and the incumbents do whatever they can to delay this, even though it's inevitable and there's a lot to gain by empowering them. All in the name of "they are not us". World has gained so much from modern Chinese industrial revolution. Why suddenly everyone got cold feet? Nobody was stopping Germany or Japan on…

[deleted]

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#439

Post by fragmede »

yanhangyhy wrote: post #367
vasco wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since it wasn’t made by God, we can definitely make it ourselves. This implies copying what someone else did. Rather than inventing something new. I know it's not what you meant but if it wasn't made by God it's because it's already made by someone else. The sentence says to me more about copying than some relentless pursuit. The people who invented the thing to copy, those were more relentless presumably. And then…

You’re not wrong to think that way. But now there’s less and less left for China to “copy,” and it’s hard to argue that many things aren’t being invented by China itself. Perhaps the real question is this: why is it that places that used to be technologically advanced no longer produce new, original inventions? Is it fear of China copying them? Did the U.S. decide not to develop a sixth-generation fighter jet because…

The joke is, if you want a consumer good to exist, but you don't want to do it yourself and you want it for cheap, just make a flashy Kickstarter for it, buy marketing, then cancel the Kickstarter and wait for Chinese"clones" to hit the market!

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#440

Post by jabl »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #406
krona wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't wait to see the first Nobel prize in physics being awarded to a scientist who is actually a product of Chinese academy. Any moment now.

Nobel prizes are almost as sus as Oscars now. Corina Machado tells you all you need to know.

The peace price is different, and it's been a bit of a hit and miss at least since Kissinger got it.

And the economics prize, though it's not officially really a Nobel prize.

But the core science prizes, AFAICT, are pretty spot on. Of course there are always many worthy contenders of a prize and one can quibble should this or that person really deserve to get it instead of another person, but I haven't heard of any outright frauds or some trivial advancement getting the prize.

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