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Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

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Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#431
post #408
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The general public doesn’t have enough information to make informed decisions when it comes to healthcare. This alone completely removes the usual market forces from providing any benefit when it comes to healthcare. Why is it always "the general public" and not "I". Do you have enough information about decisions? Can I take away some of your rights? No, of course not. Everyone else is dumb except me. I'm sorry but…

> Do you have enough information about decisions? Me personally, No. I don’t have enough information to make informed decisions here and you don’t either. Off the top of your head, how well educated is your dentist? You after all made an informed decision picking them. So how well did their background compare to others in your area. What where your concerns about their dental programs weaknesses and how was that offs…

> Off the top of your head, how well educated is your dentist?

My dentist cleans my teeth. If it's painful every time I come or I keep getting cavities I consider changing dentists. If they suggest I replace my teeth with veneers or something extreme, I consider someone else. And I'll do a few google searches.

It seems pretty normal. You don't do this?

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#432
post #431
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have enough information about decisions? Me personally, No. I don’t have enough information to make informed decisions here and you don’t either. Off the top of your head, how well educated is your dentist? You after all made an informed decision picking them. So how well did their background compare to others in your area. What where your concerns about their dental programs weaknesses and how was that offs…

> Off the top of your head, how well educated is your dentist? My dentist cleans my teeth. If it's painful every time I come or I keep getting cavities I consider changing dentists. If they suggest I replace my teeth with veneers or something extreme, I consider someone else. And I'll do a few google searches. It seems pretty normal. You don't do this?

So you didn’t look into their overall competence just the superficial aspects that occur to everyone. I agree that’s normal, but it’s also the underlying problem I was pointing to.

So you don’t need to continue, you just proved my point.

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#433
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The general public doesn’t have enough information to make informed decisions when it comes to healthcare. This alone completely removes the usual market forces from providing any benefit when it comes to healthcare. Why is it always "the general public" and not "I". Do you have enough information about decisions? Can I take away some of your rights? No, of course not. Everyone else is dumb except me. I'm sorry but…

> I'm sorry but I refuse to believe some unelected, anonymous bureaucrat has my best interests in mind or can even know me anything about me such that I want to allow them to make health decisions for me. I'm sorry to tell you that this is, but unelected bureaucrats are constantly making health decisions on your behalf. You may not want government bureaucrats, but bureaucrats already work in your employer's HR depart…

Sure, in that regard bureaucrats make sure my grocer has full shelves. There are likely dozens if not hundreds of people responsible for my local grocer just to make sure I have food.

I have no problem with bureaucrats. I want a choice. If I come in one day to find the shelves empty, I go somewhere else. If they make it difficult for me to check out, or are too expensive, I change. I just want choice.

You can choose to listen to the same unelected anonymous bureaucrats. Just log on to FDA or whatever, and follow their advice (e.g. follow the food pyramid). Only one of us wants to remove choice from the other, and that's the difference.

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#435
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if something sucks, someone comes up with something better and sells it for a profit. This is the history of pretty much every other good or service that is not heavily influenced by regulation and artificial barriers to entry

> Because if something sucks, someone comes up with something better and sells it for a profit. This is basically a religious belief at this point. It's how a perfectly ideal free market might work, but we don't have any of these, especially in healthcare.

Do you not use private businesses or something? Do you not shop at a private grocer or order things from Amazon or use a private search engine?

Probably 99% of what I consume comes from private companies and the services generally get better over time, with some exceptions. Compare that to an experience with the TSA.

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my case, there was no faking urgency. I was pointing out that urgency puts you in a different line that gets priority (basically, cancellations from the longer line). For some other things, you can travel further away to where there is less demand for what you need, and if you're willing, you don't have to wait as long. These are all different "lines" and they're the ones doing the schedule.

Ok but urgency is a different kettle of fish. Life threatening cases get urgency everywhere and immediate care everywhere. Let's focus on the other part you said, "waiting 1 year" if it's not urgent. 1 year sucks no matter how you spin it around.

>Ok but urgency is a different kettle of fish. Life threatening cases get urgency everywhere and immediate care everywhere.

Except it doesn't. At least not in the United States. I have Peripheral Artery Disease.

I had two completely occluded arteries in my left leg and a third that was mostly occluded and had an aneurysm to boot.

One day, that third artery collapsed and I was left with zero blood flow to my left foot.

The doctor had me go to the Emergency Room to get testing and imaging to have surgery the following week.

He did not simply schedule surgery, as that would have required pre-approval from my insurance company and, in fact, the insurance company denied the claim and did not approve the procedure (which saved my foot) until six weeks later -- at which time I'd have had to have my foot amputated without the angioplasty and arterial bypass.

In fact, after surgery the insurance company continued to deny my claims and refused to authorize pain meds (they sliced my left leg open from my hip to my ankle and rooted around to use an existing vein to bypass the blockage on one of my arteries) for those same six weeks.

Oh yeah, US healthcare is so much better. /rolls eyes. My insurer would have forced me to wait until I required amputation if I hadn't just gone ahead on an emergency basis as suggested (because it's not unusual for that to happen) by the surgeon.

And in case you were wondering, yes I have private insurance and pay nearly $1200/month just for me. In fact, my deductible for next year just went up 20% and my annual out of pocket doubled, yet I'm still paying essentially the same premium.

No. The US healthcare system is completely fucked and I hope you don't die or lose important body parts learning that.

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#437
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "anonymous bureaucrat" shtick doesn't land anymore. The purpose of having long-term non-political staff is so that operations don't change on a whim when some rogue director comes in and wants a second Ferrari. The reason government spends more AND is paradoxically more efficient is because most of the work of those bureaucrats is tracking, reporting, and reconciliation. That's the whole deal. Congress pass…

Can you name someone that is a long-term non-political person that is making these decisions? I have trouble believing empowering people who have no risk of losing their job and no one knows they exist is the best model for making decisions for other people.

The entirety of Medicaid and Medicare.

EDIT: Also the whole VA system.

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social mores are synonymous with morals and it is our social mores or our moral values that form the basis of our legal systems where we use those mores (moral values) to define the actions that fall into the categories of right versus wrong and help us define how we should treat each other and what an appropriate societal sanction should be when someone steps over the line and does something to violate our social mo…

”To suggest that morals are tied to religion is simply wrong.” No one has suggested that. My comment about theocracies was referring to the way religious morals direct lawmaking in theocracies, leading to things like death penalties for homosexual acts and zero tolerance of religious critique (denial of freedom of expression and persecution of political opposition).

You started off with a suggestion that on the surface implies that morals and ethics are unrelated to perceptions or definitions of harm and intent.

>Then again, maybe we should keep ethics and morals away from law and sentencing, and concentrate on harm and intent.

Morals, our value system developed by our own experiences that determine how we as individuals define right and wrong are the foundation of ethical boundaries that we impose on the groups that we form or join. Ethics are tied to morals.

Harm and intent are judgements that we make either as individuals or as group members when we look at actions and consequences (apply our moral and ethical guidelines) so that we can determine whether sanctions are necessary and reasonable based on our own shared value system.

Then you make a statement that appears to suggest that morals and ethics are unrelated when in fact, our individual morals form the foundation of ethical constraints that we impose on the groups in our societies just as they are the foundation for our religious value systems. In your either/or proposition here you apparently separate laws from morals. I disagree because laws, which follow from our own moral values and are just codified statements defining our own ethical framework so that we can all color between the same set of lines.

>Laws can be based on ethics, but moral judgments really should not be involved in their application.

Then you impose the burden of religion or theocracy with your last statement. This statement implies to the casual observer that since you reject morals (in the second statement) as a basis of laws in favor of laws based on ethics that those which are based on morals exist only under a theocratic framework. Since group ethics follow from shared individual mores this does not make sense.

>Unless you want to live in a theocracy, of course.

Morals, ethics, laws are entangled and require no religious framework for their application though as your examples demonstrate, it is possible to create a system where mores shared and recognized by all are subverted to serve a religious doctrine which is itself a permutation of an ethical system used to capture local groups and to impose a specific reward/sanction value system to aid compliance.

EDIT: I think that your use of "Unless" makes it easy for a reader to interpret the second statement as part of an IF/THEN type of statement implying a conclusion that you have defined in your third statement.

You're explicitly allowing ethics to form the basis of laws in the first part of your second statement and then using the "but" to disallow moral judgments as a basis. This is the IF part of the dialog.

The Unless follows and ends up defining the THEN part of the conclusion so that a reader can interpret your statements to conclude that IF ethics can be the foundation for laws THEN a system of laws based on moral judgments must form the basis for a theocratic system, of course.

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