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In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

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Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#431

Post by ghaff »

godelski wrote: post #91
ghaff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be aware that Medicare is a long way from free. At least if you've had a well-paying job in the past few years, Medicare premiums are pretty similar to exchange costs (or COBRA).

Everyone knows Medicare isn't "free". Medicare and COBRA are not similar costs. My parents pay half what I would pay if I took COBRA and they have a better plan. Neither of them were struggling before they retired and I'll put it this way, they bought a second home in retirement.

>Everyone knows Medicare isn't "free".

No they don't. A lot of the "Medicare for All" crowd assumes that "medicare for all"/universal healthcare is free or at least very low cost rather than something that's in the ballpark of unsubsidized individual/family healthcare plans which is the reality at least within a few years of leaving the professional workforce.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#432

Post by ivan_gammel »

WalterBright wrote: post #410
ivan_gammel wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The high level point is idealism not grounded in historical facts and probably not worthy spending time and going deeper with criticism, because full rebuttal isn’t some expert knowledge - ChatGPT can do that for you. America of 1800s is everything but libertarian paradise and is not truly exceptional. Industrialization in Europe increased prosperity while building welfare states at the same time.

Not truly exceptional? Some fun facts: 1. The immigrants came by the boatload from Europe to the US. Not the other way around. The Titanic was built for that purpose. 2. The immigrants were the poor of Europe, not the wealthy. 3. The US middle class and upper middle class and the wealthy came from those poor people. I can't think of any American wealthy families that came from the wealthy of Europe. 4. The height of…

Looks like list of arguments for a beer talk at BBQ party on 4th of July. I mean, are you seriously using „Wehrmacht relied on horses“ as a proof of American exceptionality?

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#433

Post by Retric »

Aloisius wrote: post #430
Retric wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I am describing is you literally saving money. If a government can convert a 1k outlay into 1.1k of tax revenue that same month you aren’t actually paying for those benefits you are getting a little revenue instead of zero revenue. Due to their debts operating across such long timescales people make the same basic argument for things that take longer to see positive returns, but daycare is a very short loop.

Can they convert $1K outlay into $1.1K of tax revenue the same month? Given New Mexico's tax rates, it seems like it would be difficult to do so. It looks like the program will cost about $600M next year. In order to generate more tax revenue than it costs, it would need to increase personal income somewhere on the order of $12-15B of personal income, taxable sales, business profit or some combination. Now, a fractio…

It doesn’t matter if New Mexico’s state government recuperates its revenue it matters if New Mexico’s citizens are better off. As such federal, state, and local levels are worth considering not just state taxes, including changes in other outlays such as healthcare subsidies. Effective tax rates on marginal income often exceed 50% for American families even ignoring the income stream from daycare workers and facilities etc. US Government spending being 40.5% of GDP those kinds of marginal tax rates should be expected.

Now as a low population state implementing this at the state level means most of that federal savings/revenue helps people outside of the state, but that’s the issue with implementing such programs at the state level rather than an issue with the type of program itself.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#434

Post by OGEnthusiast »

ryandrake wrote: post #14
ransom1538 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Now landlords will charge more. The owner of assets get all the money.

By your and OP's logic, nothing should be done to subsidize anything or make people's lives more affordable because the excess will be sucked up by landlords. On the flip side, if we did things to make people's lives less affordable, would that translate into landlords giving back by lowering rents? I don't think so.

> By your and OP's logic, nothing should be done to subsidize anything or make people's lives more affordable because the excess will be sucked up by landlords.

That seems pretty reasonable to me actually? When housing is so supply-constrained, any subsidies/incentives/bonuses/etc. will be captured by the owner of the scarcest asset (real estate). Building more housing at this point seems like it should be a P0 priority before anything else.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#435

Post by OGEnthusiast »

jimt1234 wrote: post #240

I've always wondered why on-site child care generally isn't offered as a perk through employment. Many large companies, like the F500 I work for, offer various on-site perks, like subsidized cafeterias, exercise facilities, garden, meditation room, etc., but never the thing that would help (parents) the most: an on-site child care center. My hunch is it comes down to two major obstacles: (1) the liability risk is too…

Pretty dystopian to have your employer raise your children for you IMO.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#436

Post by throwaway-11-1 »

WalterBright wrote: post #412
jjk166 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms, not community sacrifice. Approximately 25,000 americans gave their lives in the revolutionary war. Every signer of the declaration of independence was signing their own death warrant should they have lost to the strongest military in the world. This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice.

The price of freedom is always paid in blood. > This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice. I recommend reading the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and if you really want to get into it, the Federalist Papers. I don't recall any of that advocating free food for all, UBI, free healthcare, etc.

when you say 'individual rights', you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to. By the way, don't be so defensive, the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now, your guys won!

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#437

Post by programjames »

trollbridge wrote: post #342
programjames wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parents as a group have lobbied to pretty much own their children. It's hard to justify that ownership if the state is constantly intervening for basic things like healthcare, food, and education. I disagree with this ownership, as it's pretty bad or at least not as good as what the children could have. Think about how few children received an education before the state took ownership. This doesn't mean I don't under…

Er… America has universal public education because it started with the “Old Deluder Act”: the state wanted people to be literate so they could read the Bible. The exact opposite of your allegation above: “Think about how few children received an education before the state took ownership. This doesn’t mean I don’t understand why it is the way it is. A large part of it in America is for religious reasons: ‘don’t teach…

Maybe I'm too tired to write clearly. I meant, the reason parents have ownership over their children (at least in America) is primarily for ideological indoctrination.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#438

Post by WalterBright »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #432
WalterBright wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not truly exceptional? Some fun facts: 1. The immigrants came by the boatload from Europe to the US. Not the other way around. The Titanic was built for that purpose. 2. The immigrants were the poor of Europe, not the wealthy. 3. The US middle class and upper middle class and the wealthy came from those poor people. I can't think of any American wealthy families that came from the wealthy of Europe. 4. The height of…

Looks like list of arguments for a beer talk at BBQ party on 4th of July. I mean, are you seriously using „Wehrmacht relied on horses“ as a proof of American exceptionality?

It's proof that Germany had not industrialized like the US did.

(You won't see many horses in wartime films, because the Germans tried to show off their industrial machines, not their reliance on horsepower.)

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#439

Post by WalterBright »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #406
WalterBright wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every nation that exists or ever existed took land by force. And yes, there were public works projects. The government did not engage in welfare until FDR.

I agree on that. It doesn’t make your previous comment right.

It makes your comment a diversion from the point. America was not founded on communal sacrifice.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#440

Post by WalterBright »

throwaway-11-1 wrote: post #436
WalterBright wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The price of freedom is always paid in blood. > This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice. I recommend reading the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and if you really want to get into it, the Federalist Papers. I don't recall any of that advocating free food for all, UBI, free healthcare, etc.

when you say 'individual rights', you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to. By the way, don't be so defensive, the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now, your guys won!

> you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to

I'll go with "all men" from the Declaration of Independence.

> the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now

They're being crushed by the government. You cannot make a country wealthy by raising taxes and redistributing the money.

> your guys won!

I go with the "all men" thang.

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