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Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

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Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#431

Post by baby_souffle »

7bit wrote: post #414
awestroke wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you'd rather self host a database as well? How do you prevent data loss? Do you run a whole database cluster in multiple physical locations with automatic failover? Who will spend time monitoring replication lag? Where do you store backups? Who is responsible for tuning performance settings?

I really don't understand this comment. The cloud doesn't protect you from data loss or provide any of the things you named.

Yes it does? For a fraction of a dollar per hour, AWS will give me a URI that I can connect to. On the other end is a postgres instance that already has authentication, backups handled for me. It's also backed by a storage layer that is far more robust than anything I can get together in my rented cage with my corporate budget.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#433

Post by lossolo »

petit_robert wrote: post #373
lossolo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The tradeoff is availability. This is a myth, created so cloud providers can sell more, and so those who overpay can feel better. I've been using dedicated servers since 2005, so for 20 years across different providers. I have machines at these providers with 1000-1300 days of uptime.

> I have machines at these providers with 1000-1300 days of uptime You did not say what system you use on them, but don't you need to reboot them to apply kernel upgrades, for instance?

Most of them run Debian (some have Windows VMs running on those Debian machines), while a minority use Ubuntu. I reboot them once every few years when I upgrade the OS, kernel, or migrate to newer machine types.

I run most of the workloads in containers, but there are also some VMs (mostly Windows) and some workloads use Firecracker micro vms in containers. A small number of machines are rebooted more often because they occasionally need new kernel features, and their workloads aren't VM friendly, so they run on bare metal.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#434

Post by rypskar »

fwip wrote: post #403
grim_io wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloud providers and even cloudflare go down regularly. Relax.

Sure - but when AWS goes down, Amazon fixes it, even on the weekends. If you self-host, you need to pay a person to be on call to fix it.

Not only that. When your self-host goes down your customers complain that you are down. When AWS goes down your customers complain that internet is down

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#435

Post by Ekaros »

kitd wrote: post #253
radu_floricica wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is old is new again. Over the years I tried occasionally to look into cloud, but it never made sense. A lot of complexity and significantly higher cost, for very low performance and a promise of "scalability". You virtually never need scalability so fast that you don't have time to add another server - and at baremetal costs, you're usually about a year ahead of the curve anyways.

People are usually the biggest cost in any organisation. If you can run all your systems without the sysadmins & netadmins required to keep it all upright (especially at expensive times like weekends or run up to Black Friday/Xmas), you can save yourself a lot more than the extra it'll cost to get a cloud provider to do it all for you.

Wouldn't you want someone watching over cloud infra at those times too? So maybe slightly less, but still need some people being ready.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#436

Post by matt-p »

chubot wrote: post #264
adamcharnock wrote: post #150

I cannot overstate the performance improvement of deploying onto bare metal. We typically see a doubling of performance, as well as extremely predictable baseline performance. This is down to several things: - Latency - having your own local network, rather than sharing some larger datacenter network fabric, gives around of order of magnitude reduced latency - Caches – right-sizing a deployment for the underlying har…

Does anyone have experience with say Linode and Digital Ocean performance versus AWS and GCE? They still use VMs, but as far as I know they have simple reserved instances, not “cloud”-like weather? Is the performance better and more predictable on large VPSes? (edit: I guess a big difference is that VPS can have local NVMe that is persistent, whrereas EC2 local disk is ephemeral? )

It's essentially the same product, but you do get lower disk latency. Best performance is always going to be a dedicated server which in the US seem to start around $80-100/month (just checking on serversearcher.com), DO and so on do provide a "dedicated cpu" product if that's too much.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#437

Post by CursedSilicon »

api wrote: post #381
adamcharnock wrote: post #150

I cannot overstate the performance improvement of deploying onto bare metal. We typically see a doubling of performance, as well as extremely predictable baseline performance. This is down to several things: - Latency - having your own local network, rather than sharing some larger datacenter network fabric, gives around of order of magnitude reduced latency - Caches – right-sizing a deployment for the underlying har…

How do you deprogram your devs and ops people from the learned helplessness of cloud native ideology? I've found that it's almost impossible to even hire people who aren't terrified of the idea of self-hosting. This is deeply bizarre for someone who installed Linux from floppy disks in 1994, but most modern devs have fully swallowed the idea that cloud handles things for them that mere mortals cannot handle. This, in…

>I've found that it's almost impossible to even hire people who aren't terrified of the idea of self-hosting

Are y'all hiring? [1]

I did 15 months at AWS and consider it the worst career move of my life. I much prefer working with self-hosting where I can actually optimize the entire hardware stack I'm working with. Infrastructure is fun to tinker with. Cloud hosting feels like a miserable black box that you dump your software into and "hope"

[1] https://cursedsilicon.net/resume.pdf

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#438

Post by cortesoft »

AznHisoka wrote: post #336
odie5533 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complexity? I've never set up a highly available Postgres and Redis cluster on dedicated hardware, but I can not imagine it's easier than doing it in AWS which is only a few clicks and I don't have to worry about OS upgrades and patches. Or a highly available load balancer with infinite scale.

As a self hosting fan, i cant even fathom how hard it would be to even get started running a Postgres or redis cluster on AWS. Like, where do I go? Do i search for Postgres? If so where? Does the IP of my cluster change? If so how to make it static? Also can non-aws servers connect to it? No? Then how to open up the firewall and allow it? And what happens if it uses too much resources? Does it shutdown by itself? Wha…

Your comment seems much more in the vain "I already learned how to do it this way, and I would have to learn something to do it the other way"

Which is of course true, but it is true for all things. Provisioning a cluster in AWS takes a bit of research and learning, but so did learning how to set it up locally. I think most people who know how to do both will agree it is simpler to learn how to use the AWS version than learning how to self host it.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#439

Post by darkwater »

rightbyte wrote: post #159
adamcharnock wrote: post #150

I cannot overstate the performance improvement of deploying onto bare metal. We typically see a doubling of performance, as well as extremely predictable baseline performance. This is down to several things: - Latency - having your own local network, rather than sharing some larger datacenter network fabric, gives around of order of magnitude reduced latency - Caches – right-sizing a deployment for the underlying har…

What is old is new again. My employer is so conservative and slow that they are forerunning this Local Cloud Edge Our Basement thing by just not doing anything.

> What is old is new again.

I think there is a generational part as well. The ones of us that are now deep in our 40s or 50s grew up professionally in a self-hosted world, and some of us are now in decision-making positions, so we don't necessarily have to take the cloud pill anymore :)

Half-joking, half-serious.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#440

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

hibikir wrote: post #352
radu_floricica wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is old is new again. Over the years I tried occasionally to look into cloud, but it never made sense. A lot of complexity and significantly higher cost, for very low performance and a promise of "scalability". You virtually never need scalability so fast that you don't have time to add another server - and at baremetal costs, you're usually about a year ahead of the curve anyways.

A nimble enough company doesn't need it, but I've had 6 months of lead time to request one extra server in an in-house data center due to sheer organizational failure. The big selling point of the cloud really was that one didn't have to deal with the division lording over the data center, or have any and all access to even log in by their priesthood who knew less unix than the programmers. I've been in multiple clou…

The management overhead in requesting new cloud resources is now here. Multiple rounds of discussion and TPS reports to spin up new services that could be a one click deploy.

The bureaucracy will always find a way.

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