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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#431

Post by isodev »

firesteelrain wrote: post #360
teiferer wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should euthanize another human You are shiftinf the topic. This is about self-euthanization, assisted suicide. Not others. > Where do we draw the line? As written elsewhere, having to draw a line does not mean that the only reasonable conclusion is to make it illegal in general. It's a hard topic without easy answers. "Don't allow it" is an easy answer that doesn't do justice to the topics complexity. A good fri…

It is not really a shift. The slippery slope is the heart of the debate. Once assisted suicide is allowed, the line between respecting autonomy and others making that decision blurs. Safeguards may help, but asking where to draw the line is the central problem.

My body my choice. And I shouldn’t have to justify my choice. I’m not sure if it’s country specific or religion based, but certain groups really can’t grasp the fact that we have agency over our bodies and how we live (or not).

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#432

Post by MyOutfitIsVague »

Noaidi wrote: post #402
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer, my life isn’t going to get better. And please don’t bring some mythical being in the argument.

Both the Buddha andJesus were real people. I wasn’t bringing up God as I don’t believe in a Christian God, and Buddhists don’t believe in God at all. But those two characters taught us a lot about suffering. Where it comes from and how to face suffering with courage and not just throw your morals out the window once you have the glimpse of even future suffering. Maybe it’s just me, but I see every moment as the best…

The historical Jesus was with a high degree of certainty quite different than the way he is currently remembered and the way he is portrayed in much of the new testament. The majority of the stories involving him either did not happen or were significantly changed between when the event occurred and when, generations later, it was recorded.

I see your last paragraph as naive, and cruelly dismissive of what true suffering is. It is possible to be in a place where the only life you have left is excruciating and intolerable. You are in a privileged position to have never seen a beloved family member die a slow and terrible death, or to have had a serious prolonged health event and have the moment of realization that for some people, your horrible weeks of insufferable illness are their entire experience of life, and wonder if you'd even want to live if that was all you had left.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#433

Post by joomla199 »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #353
_ttg wrote: post #168

I was curious about how he actually died and found an [1] article describing it: > Kahneman used the services of Pegasos in the village of Roderis in Nunningen, Switzerland. In the death room with a view over green hills, wearing a suit and tie, he lay on the bed and turned on an infusion of sodium pentobarbital himself. A companion held his hand and told him they were holding it on behalf of his loved ones. Kahneman…

Is this https://pegasos-association.com the one? > Pegasos, a non-profit based in Basel, Switzerland, believes that it is the human right of every rational adult of sound mind, regardless of state of health, to choose the manner and timing of their death. I found this bit "regardless of state" really interesting. I wonder what their views would be for someone who wouldn't have a family and nothing much to do or explo…

Well they did say “rational adult of sound mind”, and “rational” there easily disqualifies every human being on the planet, with all our evolved biases, heuristics, and common predictable misjudgments. I imagine its criteria applied arbitrarily.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#434

Post by Noaidi »

MyOutfitIsVague wrote: post #432
Noaidi wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the Buddha andJesus were real people. I wasn’t bringing up God as I don’t believe in a Christian God, and Buddhists don’t believe in God at all. But those two characters taught us a lot about suffering. Where it comes from and how to face suffering with courage and not just throw your morals out the window once you have the glimpse of even future suffering. Maybe it’s just me, but I see every moment as the best…

The historical Jesus was with a high degree of certainty quite different than the way he is currently remembered and the way he is portrayed in much of the new testament. The majority of the stories involving him either did not happen or were significantly changed between when the event occurred and when, generations later, it was recorded. I see your last paragraph as naive, and cruelly dismissive of what true suffe…

> You are in a privileged position to have never seen a beloved family member die a slow and terrible death,

can I say this is not true without going into details?

is it because I had insight of my suffering that were different than yours that you don’t believe me?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#435

Post by joomla199 »

xtracto wrote: post #109
SeanAnderson wrote: post #5

Daniel wrote one of my favorite books, Thinking: Fast and Slow ( https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp... ). If you haven't read it, and you're into economics, behavioral psychology, and thinking about thinking then I'd highly recommend it. The first half of the book is especially compelling. You will be missed! Sad to hear he passed, but glad he was able to go out on his own terms.

I had read so many raves about that book, and heard the author got a Nobel prize for his ideas, so I started reading it. I just could not digest it. I understood the words but I couldn't make whatever message he was trying to convey... it felt too "dense" for me. Maybe im just stupid, but I could not get past I think the first two chapters.

It’s largely a popsci book for poseurs. To wit: most of these people “into economics” haven’t read a word of Smith or Keynes.

It’s best use is to be announced your favorite book among undistinguished company. Some people need such books. Such as those from Smith and Keynes.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#436

Post by Noaidi »

lukan wrote: post #414
Noaidi wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the Buddha andJesus were real people. I wasn’t bringing up God as I don’t believe in a Christian God, and Buddhists don’t believe in God at all. But those two characters taught us a lot about suffering. Where it comes from and how to face suffering with courage and not just throw your morals out the window once you have the glimpse of even future suffering. Maybe it’s just me, but I see every moment as the best…

"And I want to live every last second of it." Glad for you. I really hope you never come into a situation that you wish for your life to end. But please take into account, that other people might experience life different at times. No one has a death wish, because things are a bit rough sometimes. But if life is constant hell and when there is no hope anymore. Then you wish for death to release you. (Also do you know…

So many of you, here are thinking that my father did not die of a rapid metastatic cancer. Or that I held my schizophrenic brother in my arms after he tried to overdose on pills. Or that I’m not suffering from a disorder that I’m not going to detail here.

When you deal with suffering every day, you come to have a different relationship with it that is, if you don’t take the view of material list and instead follow the past of the several spiritual leaders who dealt with suffering and understood it in a way that is much deeper than “suffering is bad”.

Christ test there is much more complicated than he wanted to die because he was suffering. Christ chose his suffering and his death as a sacrifice for other people. Christ did not die by his own hands, but from others. He chose peace and love over his own suffering and death. It’s one thing to die because you have no hope and it’s another thing to die to give Hope to everyone else.

The man in the original article, he died for nothing. He died for his own selfish desires. He died because he thought it was embarrassing to be old.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#437

Post by Noaidi »

leakycap wrote: post #417
lukan wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He shared his brother had shizophrenia and much later died of it. I assume he did got a glimpse into what suffering means. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548996

Seeing someone else experience something is not the same as having it happen to you, and those who wish to instill their opinion on others often have the smallest worldviews and ability to think about what it might be like to experience what someone else is going through.

Please stop assuming you know what suffering I’ve had in my own body and my own life. I don’t wish to discuss it here, but I don’t think it needs to be discussed. My experience doesn’t matter in the logic of the argument.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#438

Post by taejavu »

joomla199 wrote: post #435
xtracto wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had read so many raves about that book, and heard the author got a Nobel prize for his ideas, so I started reading it. I just could not digest it. I understood the words but I couldn't make whatever message he was trying to convey... it felt too "dense" for me. Maybe im just stupid, but I could not get past I think the first two chapters.

It’s largely a popsci book for poseurs. To wit: most of these people “into economics” haven’t read a word of Smith or Keynes. It’s best use is to be announced your favorite book among undistinguished company. Some people need such books. Such as those from Smith and Keynes.

Since you’re giving an edgy take in a thread discussing the death of a respected author, I’ll be pedantic: you’re wrong about those people not reading a word of Smith or Keynes, since it’s impossible to avoid reading at least one of their common quotations if you have even a passing interest in the field.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#439

Post by gautamcgoel »

beachy wrote: post #375
hannofcart wrote: post #372

I see a lot of comments here expressing disapproval about assisted suicide. I'd like to quote from the HN guidelines: > Don't be curmudgeonly. Thoughtful criticism is fine, but please don't be rigidly or generically negative. With that said I urge you those who disapprove to ask whether you are being "rigidly negative" about this. 1. Is this disapproval perhaps coming from your religious context? If so, please pause…

My mum died earlier this year. In hospital, she was approved for assisted dying. There is a mandatory waiting period as part of the process. Many/most of the nursing staff are Filipino and strongly Roman Catholic. As she lay dying and unable to speak, one of the nurses undertook to convert her at this last minute to their religion. At night, alone, after all visitors had left, she would come into mum's room and press…

Sorry to hear that, that is completely unacceptable behavior.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#440

Post by jkhdigital »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #294
jonhohle wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative being when someone becomes inconvenient to others we should encourage their death? What good is compassion or empathy when the lesser in society could just go off and die, right? Why stop at incurable diseases? Political opponents, coworkers, nasty service workers, double parkers, lawyers, and many other groups cause a lot of anguish and suffering.

No. But I think that people should be able to decide when they want to end their lives if it is because of pain that won’t get any better, a terminal illness that causes pain etc. while they have all of their cognitive functions. But we should put guardrails around if the reason for assisted suicide is not pressure from relatives, depression, etc.

How many “legitimate” assisted suicides are worth one questionable case? There are no foolproof guardrails, and you’re inviting moral hazard.
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