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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#431

Post by latexr »

yason wrote: post #349

Online control is like a squatter waiting for years in the bushes on your yard and it only takes one time that you forget to lock your door and he sneaks in and claims he lives in your home, and uses all possible legal loopholes to prevent any imminent relocation. A pedigree of chatcontrols has already been turned down several times in the past but there's nothing stopping it from being raised from the dead a couple…

What’s your point? That you should just give up and invite the squatter in? Serve him a cup of tea while you’re at it, and give him the house?

That brand of defeatism has been spewed every step of the way every time. If everyone thought like you, the first version of Chat Control would have passed. But it didn’t. And even if it eventually does, later is better than sooner. Later is worth fighting for.

Look, it’s fine if you yourself want to personally give up, this is tiring. But please don’t rub your despondency on the people who are trying to fight for something which benefits you. You’re not helping. On the contrary, you’re making it worse for everyone, including yourself.

Every time you make that sort of comment, you’re helping those who want to oppress you. Either join the fight or move aside.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#432

Post by munksbeer »

nickslaughter02 wrote: post #398
munksbeer wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every thread on this I have to post the same thing, which I hope will make people inform themselves, because we need our attention to be directed at the correct people. > The EU tries something like this every few years. This is NOT the EU trying it (I'm not even sure you know what you mean when you say "The EU"). This is certain groups of politicians from certain EU member states raising it again and again. Please k…

This IS eu trying it since late 2021. The original proposal was adopted by the lead european commissioner Ylva Johansson in May 2022 and the commission has been trying to find support for it in the council ever since. ‘Who Benefits?’ Inside the EU’s Fight over Scanning for Child Sex Content ( https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the... ) Undermining Democracy: The European Commission’s Controversi…

Citing articles is tricky because people have agendas. I cannot take any of them at face value because we both know that the writing will skew to push the narrative they want.

There is a long history to CSAM, long before your 2021 date. If we want to keep it fairly recent, here is a straight from the source link for you (no journalist or blogger added their skew). This is 2019 where The Council (elected ministers of member states) are deciding for push this forward. This is how the EC (commission) usually get their mandate.

https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-12862-2019-...

Research also tells us that various NGOs and Europol have been pressing the commission to act on this (side stepping national governments), but ultimately The Commission goes through the Council to get their mandate.

And keeping it more recent, this is being pushed (again unfortunately) through elected ministers of member states onto the Commission.

I'm not saying that the commission are not involved, but your message is trying to make this complicated scenario down into "evil unelected beurocrats" coming up with schemes to spy on us. It is narrow minded and directs people the wrong way.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#433

Post by Propelloni »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #325
gambiting wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I have over 50% of my income taken from me into a collapsing welfare state/pension system That's incredibly high - where do you live if you don't mind saying?

Anywhere in Germany? Our pre-tax income is pre-pre-taxed. Before your employer pays out your wage, they are taxed for it as well.

> Anywhere in Germany? Our pre-tax income is pre-pre-taxed. Before your employer pays out your wage, they are taxed for it as well.

What? No. I'm an employer in Germany and I can tell you that's wrong.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#434

Post by earthnail »

Parae wrote: post #323
notrealyme123 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please clarify how people in Germany are unfree and unsecure now. Last time I checked we had free votes and I could say that I hate Merz.

Being free to vote doesn't make you feel free and secure. It's not even safe to attend to a protest to ask for a ceasefire in Gaza. So yeah, you can say "I hate Merz", but don't even try to say "Free Palestine"...

Free Palestine. There, I said it. Although I think it's a rather dumb slogan, and doesn't even remotely do the situation justice.

Seriously though, the notion that free speech is impaired in Germany is completely ridiculous and just a massive hoax. Compare this with the situation in the USA where the same people - like Vance who brazenly attacked Germany for an alleged lack of free speech - were super quick to demand a cancellation of Kimmel, because "you can't say that!"

We have laws against hate speech, and they may not be perfect, but they have a reason - we simply don't want to tolerate something like the Nazis shouting "burn the jews" in the name of free speech. Calling for violence does not have to be protected by speaking your mind. That's completely silly.

But the idea that Germany is anything but a completely free country is ridiculous. Some of the shit that people say (AfD, BSW) drives me nuts, but well, it's a free country.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#435

Post by orwin »

WastedCucumber wrote: post #291
orwin wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but that's talk like that that cheapen the meaning of terrorism. Once you expand it to "targeting civilian or civilian infrastructure", already it's cheapened. I agree with the expansion of meaning, but that mean nazi resistance was terrorism. Ukraine counterstrike on the crimea bridge/russian raffineries is terrorism. I do think it is, but now i do need to qualify terrorism before using the word. If we expand…

While I don't want to defend the application of "terrorism" to chat control, the examples in your second paragraph don't follow from the definition outlined above. Resistance to Nazis was meant to damage military and administrative capabilities. The Crimea bridge is a valid military target. I think Russian refineries, too, could be considered a valid target, since they support the Russian military. But even if they c…

Yes, I wasn't clear enough. The expansion of meaning 'targeting civilian infrastructure' is done, it's already in the current comprehension of the word, everywhere, and now terrorism is less bad because of it.

The US (and UK I think) tried to extend it to add 'surprise attack on an occupying force', and that didn't work, but if it did, the negative connotation of the word would lessen a lot faster, and you'd see it used as a positive already ('my little terror' could easily become 'my little terrorist' if the negative meaning is dissolved enough).

I agree on everything you say, I wanted to explain my point better.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#436

Post by fkyoureadthedoc »

tavavex wrote: post #107
fkyoureadthedoc wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they say no to your transmitting, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your forgetting to scan the case of water on the bottom of your cart, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your hacked cable box, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your speeding, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your weed, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your growing a mushroom and mailing it to your frien…

In the hypothetical world that you've set out, where surveillance is so extreme and overreaching as to help finish off the entirety of the internet for good, there's no way it would stop at the internet. The goal isn't controlling this set of standards and protocols that defines just the internet, the goal is controlling communication and the internet is the #1 way of communicating between people at the moment. If pe…

Lot of probably's and maybes moving at the speed of government in your comment, look how many decades this has been in the works.

Circumventing the Great Firewall in China is against the rules, comes with some risk for vpn operators and users, yet we know it happens regularly.

Buying and selling drugs online is illegal, yet there's always a Silk Road or Empire Market with enough buyers and sellers to make the risk worth it. We already have "letter control" for drugs, but it doesn't stop me from buying a QP of weed and a federal employee delivering it conveniently to my house.

Good luck outlawing the parts and software, maybe they'll get to them when they finally gather up all the fentanyl.

Even if chat control doesn't happen, the social internet is fucked. Just look at Quora for a preview.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#437

Post by tobias3 »

snehk wrote: post #263
notrealyme123 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please clarify how people in Germany are unfree and unsecure now. Last time I checked we had free votes and I could say that I hate Merz.

People's homes get raided and their belongings get taken away for daring to insult the ruling class or for making fun of them.

This went through the court system and it found that the "raid" was not appropriate and unlawful.

Mistakes happen and get corrected. Doesn't mean there is a systemic issue.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#438

Post by thrance »

pembrook wrote: post #277
angry_octet wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not in government just yet. But if they gain control, expect their position to change. That's why it is critical to reverse government positions across the block, or we'll see a new authoritarian wave sweep Europe.

[flagged]

How horrible, feel very free to leave for greener pastures, then.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#439

Post by fkyoureadthedoc »

dylan604 wrote: post #111
fkyoureadthedoc wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they say no to your transmitting, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your forgetting to scan the case of water on the bottom of your cart, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your hacked cable box, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your speeding, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your weed, you're going nowhere. > if they say no to your growing a mushroom and mailing it to your frien…

running an actively transmitting network is an easy thing for them to come and shut down. you doing any of the other things can easily be done without them knowing about it. you can be flippant about it all you want, but you don't look intelligent by doing so

oh no a guy on the internet called me stupid, such value will be lost if the EU takes this from us

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#440

Post by somenameforme »

saubeidl wrote: post #394
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Until very recent no one was complaining: everything was going up and everyone got better. The stock market, and your housing and investment portfolios going up, didn't mean that everyone was happy, just the asset holders like yourself and those in your bubble but you're not majority of the working population. You need to learn to differentiate between "the stock market" and "the economy". Working class people can e…

We've argued a lot on this platform before, but I fully agree with your post this time. -- a young-ish person flirting with communism.

The current systems in many places are breaking, but communism isn't a solution. Because the main reason the systems are breaking is not because of the systems themselves, but of the people in charge of them. Communism faces the exact same issue, except in that case the people in charge have orders of magnitude greater power and the people orders of magnitude less.

In a contemporary democracy we could, at least in theory, completely vote out literally every single pro-corporate, pro-war talking head in the next election. Now of course this won't ever happen, but at least in theory its an option. By contrast in communism, if one ends up unhappy with the system you have very little ability to change it.

Furthermore, in a capitalist system one can even start a communist sub-society. In fact there are many communes throughout the country, at least in the US. But in a communist system, you can't simply start a capitalist sub-society. The centralized nature of the system entails limits on freedoms, to ensure that every person is contributing to society as a whole. And this, in practice, trends towards dystopic authoritarianism in terms of how non-compliant individuals are treated.

The reason that people always claim that various efforts at communism weren't "real" communism is because the concept and theory of communism doesn't, and probably cannot, survive first contact with the interests and whims of humanity. By contrast I'd look at the overwhelming majority of the history of the US as an argument for capitalism. It's only relatively recent times, particularly after 1971 [1], that things have gone so terribly wrong.

[1] - https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

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