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Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

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Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#431
post #40

In the early 1800's Alexis de Tocqueville attributed a lot of American success to its small organizations/associations: "There is nothing, according to me, that deserves more to attract our regard than the intellectual and moral associations of America.... In democratic countries the science of association is the mother science; the progress of all the others depends on the progress of that one." [0] https://press.uc…

Great connection to draw. Ben Franklin too spent much time creating and cultivating the strength of small grassroots organizations.

Yes, his autobiography is full of incidents relating to them. Starting a library, a fire department, two companies of militia...

Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d imagine the death of volunteering and civic life has a lot to do with two income households becoming the default. A family that works forty or fifty hours a week has a lot more time to give than one that works eighty to one hundred (don’t forget commuting!)

Additionally, children are expected and virtually required to be supervised 24/7 for the first 14-ish years. Kicking kids out to play like Just William while Mrs Brown goes to the Women's Institute all afternoon is now called neglect and child abuse.

True, part of why we left the US to raise our kids

Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#433
post #40

In the early 1800's Alexis de Tocqueville attributed a lot of American success to its small organizations/associations: "There is nothing, according to me, that deserves more to attract our regard than the intellectual and moral associations of America.... In democratic countries the science of association is the mother science; the progress of all the others depends on the progress of that one." [0] https://press.uc…

Francis Fukuyama mentions this in one his books -- The Origins of Political Order or Political Order and Political Decay, I can't remember which -- and argues that this is an important part of how American democracy was workable (and British democracy too, by the way).

Other thinkers with related ideas are mentioned by other commenters:

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45364562

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45365419

As far as I can remember, Fukuyama's idea was that small organizations gave people a way come together as members of a certain community of practice or interest -- a trade, religion, a hobby -- and to gain first hand experience with self-governance. The organizations also provided a way give the shared concerns of their members a public voice. It's not feasible for a political candidate to visit every tradesman of every stripe in his shop, but when the horseshoers have a regular meeting at their hall, a candidate can often arrange to visit the hall for an hour or two. The same is true for ladies' charitable societies, religious groups, libraries, map collectors and many other groups that represent certain interests or powers in the society. These organizations were often (though not always) chapters in larger organizations, which provided a way to really focus people's voice at higher levels of government.

I believe the absence of these social organizations is more or less the cause of the imbalance in US democracy today. It simply is not workable for the individual to face off, toe-to-toe and unmediated, with the state.

Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it wasn't as good as it's often mythologised to be. Back in the 60s (in Australia) people weren't going on holidays overseas, they lived in houses under half the size of modern builds, they had worse healthcare and lived 13 years less, they had relatively monotonous diets (growing up, my mother's staple food was bread with dripping), they weren't buying new clothes, furniture, knickknacks all the time. And my gra…

While rose-tinted glasses are a huge factor, I feel like a big part of what people dream of when looking back on the last century is not just leisure, but stability and dignity. Stability in that you had jobs that lasted a lifetime and paid a pension once you retired, not layoffs every couple years. Dignity in that anyone could get a real, important, meaningful (and very rough, once you take off said rose-tinted glas…

What makes a coal miner that much more meaningful than a wal mart stocker?

Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#435
The problem is that people gravitate towards more impersonal relationships themselves because it frees them from the complexity of social calculations. We escape small organisations, we try to be independent from each other and prefer to depend on impersonal institutions.

Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent 4 years during and after covid looking for volunteer opportunities. People just weren't using anything. I'll agree with you that many of these groups may be dysfunctional. They seemed to want money (the ones I talked to) not actual people. Freemasons: what do they even do? I just know a few secretive fat white guys who belong. They're serious about it. They don't talk about it. Why would I join? I have no ide…

The neat thing is that it it doesn't actually take much money to start up a new small organization if you want to. You can accomplish a remarkable amount with relatively little money. Some friends and I just started a tool library in Central Oregon: https://cotool.org/ There some quite generous community donations of tools (not money) to get started. Startup costs were small, and now a couple weeks after opening we h…

Your tool library sounds fantastic! Congratulations on your success.

That said, although starting a new organization may not take much money, it does take a lot of wisdom and social capital. I would say that you succeeded at something quite difficult.

When I've sought out volunteer activities in the past, it was usually when my social and personal life were on shaky grounds. In particular, when I was in no shape to start something new the way you did.

I've often heard volunteering recommended as an antidote for loneliness, but as grogenaut observed, this advice can sometimes be tricky to follow in practice.

Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't know much about anarchist philosophy; would love some insight here if anyone can speak to that. But if the US (same applies to other countries) became an anarchy today, then entities like Goldman Sachs and Constellis (formerly Blackwater) are going to fare much better than most. So a naive "burn it all down" anarchy doesn't seem an answer. UPDATE: I remembered Noam Chomsky is sometimes called an anarcho-…

Most anarchist tendencies would tear Goldman Sachs to shreds. Even Rothbard wrote a pamphlet, I think he later disendorsed, justifying the breakup of any entity that contributes to war or state violence. I dont need to look up Goldman Sachs but I reckon I could justify them being in that box. >anarchism Anarchy the leftist tendency is the removal of Hierarchy. It can be debated into how you categorise that, but ultim…

Hierarchy is not part of the definition of a corporation. There are worker-owned cooperatives which are incorporated.

Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#438
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the biggest one is "church". But to get into that requires accepting (or pretending to accept, I suppose) the horizontal memetic transfer of the specific denomination.

I go to church every Sunday despite having zero belief in Jesus or God as they describe him. The sermons are socially relevant and thought-provoking, the congregation is caring and fun with cool social events, and the good that they're doing in our community is inspiring. I encourage HNers to try it! Just mentally replace "God" with "Nature" and "Jesus" with "Me" in every line and you have a good framework for self-r…

Assuming that you belong to something akin to traditional religion, do you not feel that you’re participating in bad faith (pun mostly not intended)?

Others who attend church presumably assume that you share the stated beliefs?

Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#439
post #21

Great post, thought-provoking. Highly recommended. Interestingly, in the past, the US federal government actively made efforts to keep private organizations from becoming too dominant. Here are just a few examples, from memory: * The Bell system was broken up, resulting in a geographically distributed telecom network: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System : Your phone company was local. * Banks cou…

> Interestingly, in the past, the US federal government actively made efforts to keep private organizations from becoming too dominant. Yes but one can't just ignore the federal government itself, as if this wasn't an organization. In this framing of small organizations kept small by the government the largest organization is the State. Indeed in this framing the State's job is to control other organizations. While a…

> While a democratic state is different than a private organization in that it derives legitimacy from its voters, I'd be hard pressed to say that the state is sufficiently different from any other large organization.

If the voting is not a big deal, maybe we should just get voting rights automatically to any private organization over a certain size

Re: Terence Tao: The role of small organizations in society has shrunk significantly

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most anarchist tendencies would tear Goldman Sachs to shreds. Even Rothbard wrote a pamphlet, I think he later disendorsed, justifying the breakup of any entity that contributes to war or state violence. I dont need to look up Goldman Sachs but I reckon I could justify them being in that box. >anarchism Anarchy the leftist tendency is the removal of Hierarchy. It can be debated into how you categorise that, but ultim…

Hierarchy is not part of the definition of a corporation. There are worker-owned cooperatives which are incorporated.

Yes, you could have a corporation that does not have an internal hierarchy. But (in a left anarchist view) you cant have a corporation without private property and corporate limitation of liability. Both of those are (in their view) hierarchical.

The problem from a left anarchist standpoint isn't (just) "CEO is boss, having boss bad" its that there's a group of people with special treatment everyone else is not subject to.

You might disagree with that view, and probably do. I am just familiar enough with their ideas to relay and explain them.

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