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Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

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Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be - I don’t recall using xanthum gum or food dyes (or whatever these are just random “ingredients”) when I make something for someone in else to eat. I don’t think this really requires clarification but I’m happy to indulge you on a product by product basis. Do you really think that loaf of bread you make at home is made with the same chemical process as the bread coming from Wonderbread on the shelves at Wal…

Plywood, MDF and various other wood products are not a bad thing. They have superior mechanical properties and are actually better for the environment since you can use wood that otherwise won't yield large solid boards. Again you yourself said it, pure hardwood furniture is kind of a luxury. There is nothing wrong with "artisanal" except pretending it is something that actually sustains life. Artisanal is a perfectl…

> And yes, its the exact same chemical processes. How on earth would it not be?

Here's the ingredients list for Wonderbread from Wal-Mart.com

Ingredients Unbleached Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Nonfat Milk, Enriched Semolina (Durum Wheat, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Sugar, Yeast, Contains 2% or Less of Each of the Following: Soybean Oil, Wheat Gluten, Salt, Cultured Wheat Flour, Sunflower Lecithin, Enzymes, Ascorbic Acid, Soy Lecithin.

Active Ingredient Name Unbleached Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Enriched Semolina (Durum Wheat, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Sugar, Yeast, Contains 2% or Less of Each of the Following: Soybean Oil, Wheat Gluten, Salt, Vinegar, Cultured Wheat Flour, Sunflower Lecithin, Enzymes, Ascorbic Acid, Soy Lecithin.

Here's my ingredients list for bread: salt, water, flour, yeast.

Are you really going to sit here and argue that these are the same products and they are made in the same chemical process?

This applies to other goods too, including manufactured goods. It's why Apple has historically had such great products. Sure the Windows PC specs were better, but the computer was always more than the sum of its parts and Apple continued to win out.

> Artisanal is a perfectly fine luxury hobby.

I think you are getting hung up on this word artisanal but it's not really relevant.

"Artisinal" products today are mostly marketed that way because in order for the product to compete on the market at a price the producer can afford to make it at and still live on, the product has to tell a story or have a clever marketing scheme or something like that because they can't achieve the volume of production that they need at a low enough cost to compete with mass-market supply chains and artificially cheap labor from other countries.

But these products don't have to be "artisanal", they can just be regular products that you buy at the store or a local market or something. Introducing tariffs to offset actions by other states that cause their products to be artificially cheap, keeping American entrepreneurs from starting their own soap [1] companies or whatever might raise prices in a sense, but overall it is better for the economy since there are less economic outflows, less gig workers and people on government handouts, and more entrepreneurial activities and product innovation.

Software engineers already know this is true, which is why they always complain about outsourcing of jobs to cheaper countries. It's cheaper! That's all that matters, right?

[1] I don't know that soap is the best commodity product to use, it's just an example.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plywood, MDF and various other wood products are not a bad thing. They have superior mechanical properties and are actually better for the environment since you can use wood that otherwise won't yield large solid boards. Again you yourself said it, pure hardwood furniture is kind of a luxury. There is nothing wrong with "artisanal" except pretending it is something that actually sustains life. Artisanal is a perfectl…

> And yes, its the exact same chemical processes. How on earth would it not be? Here's the ingredients list for Wonderbread from Wal-Mart.com Ingredients Unbleached Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Nonfat Milk, Enriched Semolina (Durum Wheat, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Sugar, Yeast,…

Yes, bread is still bread, all those are still additives. They don't suddenly turn bread into not-bread.

>"Artisinal" products today are mostly marketed that way because in order for the product to compete on the market at a price the producer can afford to make it at and still live on, the product has to tell a story or have a clever marketing scheme or something like that because they can't achieve the volume of production that they need at a low enough cost to compete with mass-market supply chains and artificially cheap labor from other countries.

Correct, its no longer a sustainable business. How far do you want to go? Would you make nails by hand too? How about mining the steel for the nails? Artisanal today (not 400 years ago) is a luxury product born out of free time and our basic needs having already been met by industrial processes. The way to make it sustainable source of income is to do what the factories are doing, automate and scale up.

And why this over focus on producers? What about consumers? Why kill consumers to artificially enrich producers? I care deeply about the middle and lower class. I don't want their expenses to suddenly rise several times because government turned what was a free choice and forced them into an artificially propped up expensive hobby market pretending to be a real market.

But let us not get too lost from the question. Let us first decide what is the meaningful distinction to our purposes between these two breads in relation to the matter of tariffs.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so why bother with the same item but more expensive. It's not the same item, that's why. You're still not understanding how products are priced, nor are you accounting for negative externalities (or positive ones) that factor into that price. Prices aren't being artificially inflated because of tariffs any more than they are artificially lower because of a certain country's monetary policy or wage gaps or whatever.

Give me a million dollars right now, and I will buy everything with supreme moral and ethical standards. If you truly believe in it, then you'd immediately give me a million instead of demanding the impossible: for someone to buy things several times out of their capabilities if you sum all items up.

Do you endorse literal slave labor then to make prices as low as possible?

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so why bother with the same item but more expensive. It's not the same item, that's why. You're still not understanding how products are priced, nor are you accounting for negative externalities (or positive ones) that factor into that price. Prices aren't being artificially inflated because of tariffs any more than they are artificially lower because of a certain country's monetary policy or wage gaps or whatever.

Its the exact same item on the shelf. It didn't change at all. The only thing changed was the government came and artificially jacked its expenses up.

The government that the item comes from also artificially made the price lower so it just evens out.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so why bother with the same item but more expensive. It's not the same item, that's why. You're still not understanding how products are priced, nor are you accounting for negative externalities (or positive ones) that factor into that price. Prices aren't being artificially inflated because of tariffs any more than they are artificially lower because of a certain country's monetary policy or wage gaps or whatever.

Again you are repeatedly failing to understand the word "luxury". Please look it up in a dictionary somewhere. Luxuries are nice, I can afford many luxuries. Others can't. All for the stupidity of paying more to gain absolutely nothing more at that, not even for any meaningful discernible difference.

If the prices are the same and there’s no difference then keeping buying the imported product.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yes, its the exact same chemical processes. How on earth would it not be? Here's the ingredients list for Wonderbread from Wal-Mart.com Ingredients Unbleached Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Nonfat Milk, Enriched Semolina (Durum Wheat, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Sugar, Yeast,…

Yes, bread is still bread, all those are still additives. They don't suddenly turn bread into not-bread. >"Artisinal" products today are mostly marketed that way because in order for the product to compete on the market at a price the producer can afford to make it at and still live on, the product has to tell a story or have a clever marketing scheme or something like that because they can't achieve the volume of pr…

> Yes, bread is still bread, all those are still additives.

Ok unfortunately I don’t think we really have much to discuss here if you think that. Our world views on products and economics are too different.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its the exact same item on the shelf. It didn't change at all. The only thing changed was the government came and artificially jacked its expenses up.

The government that the item comes from also artificially made the price lower so it just evens out.

Are you sure they did? You have to give a precise list of those items which have been artificially cheapened by the other govts before you impose tariffs then. Obviously you can't believe the USA is the peak at every possible sector. Or do you really believe that another country being better at something must mean they are cheating? Give me the list or stop the tariff bs.

Sometimes, there is no deeper explanation for this nonsense than being a sore loser at someone else being better than you at something.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, bread is still bread, all those are still additives. They don't suddenly turn bread into not-bread. >"Artisinal" products today are mostly marketed that way because in order for the product to compete on the market at a price the producer can afford to make it at and still live on, the product has to tell a story or have a clever marketing scheme or something like that because they can't achieve the volume of pr…

> Yes, bread is still bread, all those are still additives. Ok unfortunately I don’t think we really have much to discuss here if you think that. Our world views on products and economics are too different.

They certainly are if you are so enamored by artificially making peoples lives worse.

You still failed to explain btw precisely in what manner the differences between the production of bread at home and at a factory are relevant to tariffs?

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, bread is still bread, all those are still additives. They don't suddenly turn bread into not-bread. >"Artisinal" products today are mostly marketed that way because in order for the product to compete on the market at a price the producer can afford to make it at and still live on, the product has to tell a story or have a clever marketing scheme or something like that because they can't achieve the volume of pr…

> Yes, bread is still bread, all those are still additives. Ok unfortunately I don’t think we really have much to discuss here if you think that. Our world views on products and economics are too different.

Why? Do you think alcohol for example becomes some Magicaniumsupernaturalum non-alcohol if its kept in an oak barrel for a few years vs being sold as is? Its still alcohol, the other chemicals are additions to it. If the other chemicals are gone, its still functional alcohol. If the alcohol is gone and the other chemicals remain, then its no longer a working alcohol.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government that the item comes from also artificially made the price lower so it just evens out.

Are you sure they did? You have to give a precise list of those items which have been artificially cheapened by the other govts before you impose tariffs then. Obviously you can't believe the USA is the peak at every possible sector. Or do you really believe that another country being better at something must mean they are cheating? Give me the list or stop the tariff bs. Sometimes, there is no deeper explanation for…

I don’t care if “other country” can make t-shirts better than we can. I care that we make them with our labor and keep our money here instead of going into debt and losing jobs.

China for example doesn’t allow US social media companies. There you go. There’s one item which is all we need, therefore tariffs against China are justified until they open their markets to free competition from the US. Hell, just this week the CCP banned Chinese companies from buying Nvidia chips.

(I’m picking on China here because it’s the east example, but it is not the only one)

> Sometimes, there is no deeper explanation for this nonsense than being a sore loser at someone else being better than you at something.

Ok let us be sore losers by ourselves with our tariffs. What concern is it if any other country?

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