Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you linux on this ? if so.. does everything work ?
Haven't received it yet, but of course I will install Linux on it.
Please respond to this with a link to your quick synopsis.
The Framework Desktop is a beast
431–440 of 464 posts
Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast
#432Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is that really the long pole in the tent, though? No doubt the most tightly integrated package can outperform a looser collection of components. But if we could shorten the distances, tighten the tolerances, and have the IC companies work on improving the whole landscape instead of just narrow, disjointed pieces slowly one at a time, then would the unsoldered connections still cause a massive performance loss or just…
Yes. Signal integrity is so finicky at frequencies DRAM operates that whether you drill the plated holes on boards that complete the circuit to go completely through the board or stop it halfway starts to matter due to signals permeating into the stubs of the holes and reflecting back into the trace causing interference. Adding a connector between RAM and CPU is like extending that long pole in the tent in the middle…
In the past, at least, RAM upgrades weren't just about filling in the slots you couldn't afford to fill on day one. RAM modules also got denser and faster over time too. This meant you could add more and better RAM to your system after waiting a couple years than it was even physically possible to install upfront.
Part of the reason I have doubts about the physical necessity here is because PCI Express (x16) is roughly keeping up with GDDR in terms of bandwidth. Of course they are not completely apples-to-apples comparable, but it proves at least that it's possible to have a high-bandwidth unsoldered interface. I will admit though that what I can find indicates that signal integrity is the biggest issue each new generation of PCIe has to overcome.
It's possible that the best solution for discrete PC components will be to move what we today call RAM onto the CPU package (which is also very likely to become a CPU+GPU package) and then keep PCIe x16 around to provide another tier of fast but upgradeable storage.
Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast
#433Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not to defend Apple here, but it's also a bit apples to oranges (heh) because the power consumption is not easily comparable. I would hazard a guess and say: at that spec, if you're looking at 1Y TCO, the Apple could easily be cost competitive performance per dollar. Since they're in spitting distance of each other, just get the one you're most comfortable with. Personally I prefer Linux and I'm really happy that non…
> if you're looking at 1Y TCO, the Apple could easily be cost competitive performance per dollar. Only if you're buying artesinal single source electricity sustainably sourced from trained dolphins. Average US electrical power is $.18/kWh per google. Figure the desktop draws 300W continuous (which it almost certainly can't), and that's 0.3 kW * 24 hr/day * 365.2425 days/yr == $473/year. So even if the mac was complet…
But the price difference is only $38…
Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast
#434Earlier quoted context omitted.
Largely Vulkan. Microsoft internally is a huge consumer of DirectML for specifically the LLM team doing Phi and the Copilot deployment that lives at Azure.
I'm not sure if it's just the implementation, but I tried using llama.cpp on Vulkan and it is much slower than using it on CUDA.
It is on Nvidia. Nvidia's code generation for Vulkan kind of sucks, it also effects games. llama.cpp is almost as optimal as it can be on the Vulkan target; it uses VK_NV_cooperative_matrix2, which turning that off loses something like 20% performance. AMD does not implement this extension yet, and due to better matrix ALU design, might not actually benefit from it.
Game engines that have singular code generator paths that support multiple targets (eg, Vulkan, DX12, Xbone/XSX DX12, and PS4/5 GNM) have virtually identical performance on the DX12 and Vulkan outputs on Windows on AMD, have virtually identical performance on apples-to-apples Xbox to PS comparisons (scaled to their relative hardware specs), and have expected DX12 but not Vulkan performance on Windows on Nvidia.
Now, obviously, I'm giving a rather broad statement on that, all engines are different, some games on the same engine (especially UE4 and 5) are faster than one or the other on AMD, or purely faster entirely on any vendor, and some games are faster on Xbox than on PS, or vice versa, due to edge cases or porting mistakes. I suggest looking at, GamersNexus's benchmarks when looking at specific games or DigitalFoundry's work on benchmarking and analyzing consoles.
It is in Nvidia's best interest to make Vulkan look bad, but even now they're starting to understand that is a bad strategy, and the compute accelerator market is starting to become a bit crowded, so the Vulkan frontend for their compiler has slowly been getting better.
Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast
#435Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Wow, someone managed to beat Apple on price?? He didn't pick the equivalent Mac to compare to. The closest Mac would be a an M4 Pro Mac Mini, not a Mac Studio. Right now I see a 64GB M4 Pro Mac Mini with 2TB SSD is $2600. Still more expensive, but not double the price. The Apple refurbished store has the same model for $2200. The M4 Pro Mac Mini probably has the edge in performance, though I can't say how much. The…
> The Apple refurbished store has the same model (...) You have to admit this reads as grade A cope. Is it that hard to acknowledge that Apple price gouges all their product line?
No, the very cheapest (new) one is competetive, everything else is price gouged
Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast
#436Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is no firmware lock, and here's the iFixIt guide for doing it. > How to Replace the SSD in your Mac mini (2024) https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+...
...normal M.2 SSDs are incompatible. This guide is purely instructional for how to replace the SSD with another of the same type.
You can indeed purchase third party replacements up to the maximum size supported by that model.
Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast
#437Earlier quoted context omitted.
> if you're looking at 1Y TCO, the Apple could easily be cost competitive performance per dollar. Only if you're buying artesinal single source electricity sustainably sourced from trained dolphins. Average US electrical power is $.18/kWh per google. Figure the desktop draws 300W continuous (which it almost certainly can't), and that's 0.3 kW * 24 hr/day * 365.2425 days/yr == $473/year. So even if the mac was complet…
A device with no moving parts, only 5 years of expected life?! I understand if you say that high-performance users will want a newer system after 5 years, but I'd be very surprised if this 64GB RAM machine doesn't suffice for 98% of people, including those who want to play then-common games at default settings Good to have some concrete figures nonetheless of course, it's always useful as a starting point
Apple only promises to support devices for 5 years.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102772
They do sometimes end up supporting devices for longer than this, but you can't rely on it.
Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast
#438Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not difficult at all. > How to Replace the SSD in your Mac mini (2024) https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+...
from the link: > Apple integrates the storage controllers into the Apple Silicon SoC, which means that normal M.2 SSDs are incompatible.
Nevertheless, third parties have created compatible replacements that are much cheaper.
They just don't need to include a SSD controller, since that is already built into the SOC.
Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast
#439> The Framework Desktop with 64GB RAM + 2TB NVMe is $1,876. To get a Mac Studio with similar specs [...] you'll literally spend nearly twice as much [...] The Framework Desktop is simply a great deal. Wow, someone managed to beat Apple on price?? I don't know that it logically follows that anything is a great deal when it undercuts Apple. Half sounds about right -- I thought Apple was a bit more competitive these day…
Strix Halo is one of the tier-1 out-of-the-box perfect targets for for // hypermodern // nixos so I'm tuning it for the EVO-X2 which was the first desktop one available (and we'll support omarchy's hyprland rice out of the box, its a nice rice even if I prefer Ono-Sendai). That's getting you twice the RAM for the same price. Now the Framework has both intangible cool factor and scope for more upgrades, so if money is…
obligatory Neuromancer reference to get those sweet upvotes.
Well played sir! <3
Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast
#440You know it would be a great use for this chip besides AI generative slop? A desktop server with AI-enhanced firewall and a silent home server. This could be effective for zero-days and other weird traffic patterns and maybe even add enterprise-ish email server with spam detection. There has been several projects started that are experimenting with this including Suricata and pfSense. I wonder how well this chip coul…
If you call what AI generates 'slop' then what do you think the quality of firewall rules it generates will be? I dont think any enterprise is going to hand over the keys to its firewall any time soon.
You don't understand AI if you think generative AI is the only kind of AI. I specifically said generative AI so please just read my comment before replying.