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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#431

Post by Jolter »

-__---____-ZXyw wrote: post #389
jon-wood wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure if a teacher in a school is found to be scrolling TikTok when they're meant to be teaching a lesson they're going to lose their job pretty quickly.

Have you interacted with humans anytime in the last five years? People scroll TikTok or equivalent scrolly things as they drive, eat, poop, cook, as they "talk", as they walk, as they queue, as they "watch" movies and tv shows, during their down time, up time, in the bed until the small hours of the morning, people wake up on their day off and have a big plan and then... scroll the whole day. People go to the beach a…

Yes, you're right, we should ban smart phones (or at least certain types of apps) for adults, too. But sadly there is no political majority in favor of that opinion, in Finland or elsewhere. (Wait, maybe they're banned in North Korea or somewhere? Not sure.)

(This is irony/sarcasm, please don't downvote. Haha only serious.)

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#432

Post by const_cast »

ndriscoll wrote: post #424
const_cast wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that using a smartphone is a _very easy_ skill. I mean, who are we kidding. These devices are set up such that the stupidest person can use them. It's not 1995 anymore and we aren't walking in a line to the computer lab. These things are idiot-proof. You really don't need hours of practice everyday to learn how to use them.

It's probably still appropriate in 2025 for kids to go to the computer lab and learn to use an actual computer (ideally running some flavor of Linux so that they can learn to expect that the computer is a tool that obeys the user). Phones are both idiot-proof and expert-proof, and while you can use something like Termux as another commented noted (and I use it on my phone), it's sufficiently horrible that you'll neve…

I agree 100%. From what I've personally seen, I think younger people are actually becoming less versed in computers. There was a brief moment in time in which:

1. Most people had access to computers.

2. Computers were difficult to use and required building skills.

2 is no longer true anymore, so those skills are getting lost. Try asking a 15 year old what a filesystem is.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#433

Post by Jolter »

DocTomoe wrote: post #256
cheschire wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars exist and are foundational to modern living yet we do not push kids to learn to drive until their later teenage years. Some countries wait until they are 18 and others choosing a couple years sooner.

On the other hand, we don't teach kids in school the mechanical basics of automated locomotion, how to distill oil into usable fuel and how to mill an engine block before we allow them to get a driver's license. Unlike modern education, which puts a massive emphasis on teaching how to do menial, useless things before going the sensible route [e.g. I remember vividly how we were tortured by doing table of values calcu…

No, it keeps teachers happy because the kids are able to focus on the teaching instead of sneaking looks in their phones every chance they get. (Not all kids, etc, but certainly a lot of kids do this.) No matter what method of teaching you can imagine, a cell phone will be a distraction to a teenager.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#434

Post by psunavy03 »

hackyhacky wrote: post #415
psunavy03 wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

. . . aside from supporting slavery and then the Dixiecrats opposing civil rights, you mean? If you actually look at American history, the ugly parts are ultimately bipartisan.

> . . . aside from supporting slavery and then the Dixiecrats opposing civil rights, you mean? If you actually look at American history, the ugly parts are ultimately bipartisan. You are really pushing both-sides-ism to its limits. It goes without saying that if you have to go back that far in history to find an analogy to today's abuse of power, you are proving GP's point: the lawlessness of the Republican party is…

The person I was replying to said "never before," which means that AND the internship of Japanese-Americans during WWII are squarely on the table.

I never voted for Trump and I don't support the power grabs he's trying to make, but I also understand America has a history of playing footsie with authoritarianism every 80-100 years or so.

Internment camps, a civil war over literally owning humans as property, the Alien and Sedition Acts . . .

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#435

Post by tootie »

perlgeek wrote: post #226

At my daughters' school, the rules are roughly: * no phones during classes or during breaks (with the exception of lunch break, I think) * phone can be allowed by teachers for a particular class and purpose * if a student uses a phone while it's not allowed, the phone will be confiscated until the end of the school day * (there might be a more severe rule for repeat offenders) IMHO this strikes a pretty good balance…

At my daughter's high school, kids are expected to pay attention, take notes and get assignments done. There's little restriction on phone use unless the kids are explicitly supposed to be doing something else with their hands. Kids are even allowed to use personal laptops/chromebooks. They routinely send kids to Ivy leagues and top 10 engineering programs.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#436

Post by acdha »

psunavy03 wrote: post #408
malcolmgreaves wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> current government is pushing the limits The Republicans* are. Important to be factually accurate here’s the Democrats have never done anything remotely this lawless and authoritarian before.

. . . aside from supporting slavery and then the Dixiecrats opposing civil rights, you mean? If you actually look at American history, the ugly parts are ultimately bipartisan.

Our history is ugly, but that particular detail needs to address the southern realignment where the Jim Crow-era Democrats moved to the Republican Party. I think it’s less about bipartisanship and more that there’s a group of people who both switch parties and influence within parties trying to accomplish their goal of maintaining their superiority over other groups. Their loyalty is to their group, not the party.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#437

Post by _bin_ »

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #396
_bin_ wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I think this just looks a little alien from an American perspective because most of our rights are set up as explicit negatives to block the government from legislating them away, more than to prevent Joe or Jane Teacher from taking a phone. "Congress shall pass no law..." I guess the nordics don't have a common-law tradition and so never inhereted the in loco parentis doctrine that allows schools to take subst…

Americans don’t have constitutional rights. It’s a fantasy that has crumpled the second it hit the reality of having a dictator as president and a political party that doesn’t care about laws. The Republicans have deported American citizens (children) who were born in America. The Republicans have arrested a judge in Milwaukee because they didn’t like that judge following the law.

This wouldn't be the first time that it took a while for the courts to redress wrongs. Dred Scott technically stood until rendered obsolete by the Thirteenth Amendment. Brown v. Board didn't happen until the fifties. The courts didn't catch up to applying the Alien Enemies Act to japanese during WWII until after the war had ended.

This doesn't mean that we don't have constitutional rights. The whole point of an inalienable right is that it's an inherent right recognized by governance. The state can't take them away, only violate them.

As for your other points, I think you're actually keying on the wrong one; the administration's actions with Garcia are much more clearly wrong. The Wisconsin Supreme Court today temporarily suspended Judge Dugan despite the fact that four of its seven justices generally lean liberal, and are elected rather than appointed. We'll see if there's anything to the charges. If not, maybe we'll see each other at a protest, but it doesn't appear she was "following the law". As for the children, I believe that was due to a policy of keeping families together; if their parents must leave the country, they must follow or be placed in foster care.

Dismissing rule-of-law as a concept is both premature and counterproductive, in the sense that it only discourages people who could otherwise focus on using the checks and balances in place for this reason to rein in the administration.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#438

Post by -__---____-ZXyw »

Jolter wrote: post #431
-__---____-ZXyw wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you interacted with humans anytime in the last five years? People scroll TikTok or equivalent scrolly things as they drive, eat, poop, cook, as they "talk", as they walk, as they queue, as they "watch" movies and tv shows, during their down time, up time, in the bed until the small hours of the morning, people wake up on their day off and have a big plan and then... scroll the whole day. People go to the beach a…

Yes, you're right, we should ban smart phones (or at least certain types of apps) for adults, too. But sadly there is no political majority in favor of that opinion, in Finland or elsewhere. (Wait, maybe they're banned in North Korea or somewhere? Not sure.) (This is irony/sarcasm, please don't downvote. Haha only serious.)

Who is saying we ban smart phones for adults? I don't get how this is a response to what I'm saying.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#439

Post by _bin_ »

askonomm wrote: post #350
_bin_ wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm seeing this wrong but a public school is a government institution, right? It seems reasonable, then, that the government could say "no phones in here", just like they can say "no drinks in the courtroom".

Not all schools are government institutions or funded by the government. But it wouldn't matter to your point, because by that logic anyone who owns the building should then be able to make rules about what goes on inside that building, or any organization, etc. Much like how you have basic wardrobe etiquette, you could also have a rule that says no phones in a classroom. Now me being Estonian, just across the sea fr…

Well sure, I tend to agree with that. Government buildings can be an exception because they're public and we more carefully constraint the things the government can do, and because you can be forced to go there.

I too am a bit baffled by the idea that you need a law for that. But, as I said, we have a different common law tradition in America that changes things. The only two big legal influences which I've read on are common law and the justinian codex -> napoleonic code path; scandi law is alien to me.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#440

Post by perlgeek »

tootie wrote: post #435
perlgeek wrote: post #226

At my daughters' school, the rules are roughly: * no phones during classes or during breaks (with the exception of lunch break, I think) * phone can be allowed by teachers for a particular class and purpose * if a student uses a phone while it's not allowed, the phone will be confiscated until the end of the school day * (there might be a more severe rule for repeat offenders) IMHO this strikes a pretty good balance…

At my daughter's high school, kids are expected to pay attention, take notes and get assignments done. There's little restriction on phone use unless the kids are explicitly supposed to be doing something else with their hands. Kids are even allowed to use personal laptops/chromebooks. They routinely send kids to Ivy leagues and top 10 engineering programs.

I would be very interested to know under what kind of condition such rules work, and where they don't.
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