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Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

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Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#431
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vastly more efficient at storing electricity. Vastly more expensive to construct, using rare materials. Have a Vastly shorter lifespan than a hydrogen tank and much lower energy density. Everything is a compromise

Many batteries actually last significantly longer than common hydrogen storage tanks, hydrogen embrittlement is a major issue. Type III and IV tanks have a life cycle of 10 years. https://www.awoe.net/Hydrogen-Storage-LCA.html Hydrogen has also terrible volumetric energy density. It’s also really heavy until you scale to huge tanks.

Hydrogen's volumetric energy density is about as good as lithium-ion. The cost of replacing a hydrogen tank vs a lithium battery is absolutely massive. You also aren't considering the energy density lost in cold weather for batteries.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#432
Don't know, but in Germany 100% corruption.

To be clear no necessary corruption of the people in agencies themself,

- but of the people consulting them

- and/or influential investors in a sunk cost fallacy where they think they still can save their investments

- again often a place they ended up in due to corruption, not necessary them themself being corrupt but other which gave them wrong consultancy

Even when I looked into the topic around 14~ years ago it was very clear that hydrogen will likely not be a competitive technology for cars "in general", through maybe somewhat competitive in some niche (i.e. trucks). But the thing is if you considered marked dynamics back then it never looked long side promising. As whatever wins outside of the niche (batteries) will get so much more traction weather it's infrastructure or science investments.

Now the question is what kind of corruption?

Russian Money (and any other natural gas exporter, but in Germany mainly Russian Money)

Again not necessary Russia directly going to people and bribing them. But mainly by using co-investments, potentially with obfuscated source, to convince people that a lot of other reliable investors are investing into it and therefor you should, too. Which, with a bit of more direct corruption, is quite an efficient strategy to push investments into a specific direction. Because the more you convince ("in general" independent) investors to invest into hydrogen the more they will lobby for hydrogen themself.

Now the key question here is why would Russia want to convince countries to use hydrogen as a "green future technology"?

Because why it technically looks like it can work, _it practically does not_!

This isn't even about hydrogen cars by themself.

But about hydrogen production, the simplest cheapest way to produce hydrogen is from natural gas in a non green way. While you can produce it green it has a pretty bad efficiency and exiting (and long term planed!!!) infrastructure is barely enough to move the hydrogen usage from other industries which do not it anyway to green methane.

And while lobbyist go on and on about how it's just a question to spin up the infrastructure it not only doesn't seem to happen even ~14 years ago it didn't seem that likely and today it's very clear it won't happen because it makes no sense. I mean sure e.g. Australia will likely produce a ton of green Hydrogen in the future, but again in comparison of what is needed to move all trucks & busses etc. to it it's not that relevant.

This doesn't mean there is no use ever for green hydrogen (like mentioned various existing industries need hydrogen). But today you can very clearly say it doesn't make sense for PKWs (full stop) and due to constant battery improvements in all areas and high investments into future improvements and not having reached a wall in science in that are it has moved from "it might make sense for some decades for trucks" to, nah, seems dump for trucks, too.

So to sum up:

- It seems doable enough so that (potentially corrupt) lobbyist can be convincing.

- Russia spend a ton of money in co-investing into research to push research in the EU and especially Germany in that direction. Implicitly making it look like a good investment deal.

- Then a lot of people which can influence political decisions got stuck with it as they are worried about losing their investment and worse, having missed the window to get a foothold into the actual future technologies.

- Then this people using their vast influence, including e.g. the "Springer Verlag" (most influential new publisher in Germany).

- Leading to a loop where more people get mislead into tinging it's good and invest themself, and then lobby for it and then worry to lose their investment so now lobby against any of it's competition.

- And even companies and politicians not stuck in that loop in any way might thing it's not "viable" and as such don't push against that nonsense.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#433

Back in 2003, President George W. Bush announced the Hydrogen Fuel Initiative. At the time, people criticized the effort as an attempt by the oil industry to shift attention away from electric cars. The oil industry knew that hydrogen power wasn't going to be viable anytime soon, while electric cars were already a direct threat to their profits, so they pushed the US government towards hydrogen power. Not to disparag…

In 2003 there were no viable or mass market electric cars at all. What a made up narrative.

Electric cars were driven on the moon before Elon Musk was in diapers

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to dispute your numbers with diesel versus EV reliability, but I have to think the simplicity of an EV drivetrain will win that battle in the next version or two.

It’s hard to imagine it not. And also kudos and crazy respect for all the thousands of engineers that poured their work into making combustion engines as efficient and reliable as they are. A true marvel of humanity, and something to be respected even as we leave it behind.

And yet, how much earlier could we have had better solar panels and EVs?

Certainly wind power was viable as soon as fiberglass was invented.

The mass engineering should have also been directed at that which would have saved us a billion tons of carbon.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#435
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20% loss isn't really "huge", is it? 10% of power is lost to distribution anyway. Batteries can also lose 10%. The issue with hydrogen isn't producing it, it's that it's an absolute nightmare to transport and store. Hydrogen can soak into metals, causing them to become brittle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement and it leaks if there's absolutely any chance of it possibly leaking (thanks to the sma…

But then you have even more losses when you convert the hydrogen back to energy. The formula is that 55kW of electricity used to generate hydrogen from water and then converted back to electricity in a gas turbine or fuel cell results in 15kW of energy. That's a lot more than 20%. Compare that to just storing the 55kW in batteries and using them to spin an electric engine. "Hydrogen economy" only makes sense if you h…

And don't you lose a significant amount compressing it for reasonable storage as well? Or is that considered part of the generation loss?

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#436
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries have won this so hard (if you ignore CNG busses, which have existed forever and are "almost as good as hydrogen could be") - because even when they hadn't won it, you just needed more busses. Is it nice if the bus can do a driver's entire shift without a recharge? Sure! But if it can't, you just design the route so that the driver can switch busses and buy another bus. That means the technology problem is n…

> But if it can't, you just design the route so that the driver can switch busses and buy another bus Oof, that's a huge 'just' in many cases. That said, current electric buses have sufficient range that this mostly isn't an issue. The unnervingly silent double-deckers I mention have a claimed range of 320km, which, at least here, is sufficient. The big problem with Dublin's electric buses, ridiculously, was that the…

> Oof, that's a huge 'just' in many cases.

Alternatively, you could add charging infrastructure in more places. Eg, partially have trolley-like lines on the route to "top up". This could make sense on dedicated buslanes, especially when multiple lines use that stretch (eg near central stop).

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason the electric mail trucks are a good idea. You can probably expect UPS and FedEx to start replacing their fleets over time as the existing vehicles age out, now that all electric vans are starting to become available.

Where I live a parcel delivery round can be hundreds of miles, so let's not over generalise

That sounds like a pretty rural area. Your postal office is likely running personal vehicles for mail service.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#438
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla succeeded because heavy and intense government subsidies and investment into making electric cars a thing The fact that an EV failed without that kind of publicly funded support is only evidence that furthers the point GP was making

They succeeded where others failed because they are fun to drive. There were no fun EVs prior to the Roadster. And the Roadster was a small production precursor to Model S, which transitioned from boutique-ish to mass production, and which led to the Model 3, and then the Model Y, the number one selling car in the world. Until the past five years or so almost every other EV was still an oddball whose design language…

The roadster was a conversion of a Lotus Elise, they were still trying to figure out powertrain and battery back then. Still, reusing an existing chassis was a good strategy till they had more experience.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have actual knowledge of their motives? Or is this speculation, confidently stated as fact? Another possible motive, mentioned in the the paragraph you quote, is that the oil companies see an energy transition coming and are trying to get aboard the hydrogen train to diversify their future revenue sources. And that sounds like a reasonable motive; the sort of thing that people who don't see themselves as evil…

This just sounds intentionally naive.

I think you mean disingenuous

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the last and most funny one >Driving a gyrobus has the added complexity that the flywheel acts as a gyroscope that will resist changes in orientation, for example when a bus tilts while making a turn, assuming that the flywheel has a horizontal rotation axis. So you have a giant blender than can travel one mile in a straight line before needing to be recharged

Shouldn't it still be able to turn, just not tilt?

It depends what orientation you mount the gyroscope in, but yeah the "correct" way would be to make it axis vertical to limit pitch and roll
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