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The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

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Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#431

Post by roenxi »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #415
roenxi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sort of person who can set up -arr daemons isn't going to really be on the radar of anyone pushing DRM. Those skills are so rare people will pay for them. The point is that there is a huge market of people who barely know what an internet is but want to watch media. As long as they can't figure out how to get pirated content up and running quickly then DRM is doing its job. Pirated content represents a relatively…

> Those skills are so rare people will pay for them. People will pay you to move dirt from one side of a lot to the other side.

I'm not convinced you're making a point. Physical skills are also something of a rarity. Not as rare as technical administration, but manual labouring tasks are demanding and not for everyone. There are a lot of unfit, old, young or weak people who I wouldn't want to see hauling dirt because they aren't up to the challenge and wouldn't do a good job. Similarly there are a lot of clueless individuals who I would not want setting up -arr demons professionally.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#432

Post by _2d30 »

cannabis_sam wrote: post #373

DRM is a government sanctioned desecration, by corporations, of your private property rights, by its very definition. Whether it’s in the GPU, CPU, TPM, or any other part of computing property you ostensibly own, is an utterly irrelevant distraction, the root is the unholy alliance of government and capital power.

> the root is the unholy alliance of government and capital power.

And Labor too, don't forget!

https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/sag-aftra-back-an...

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#433

Post by matheusmoreira »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #410
matheusmoreira wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GPU is a completely separate computer running proprietary software. "Operating systems" do not operate anything anymore. They are just some user app, to be sandboxed very far away from the real action. https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo Stallman warned everyone. Virtually nobody listened.

> "Operating systems" do not operate anything anymore. Not entirely fair. There is still a kernel and a privileged userspace layer. That hasn't changed. The OS implements a common API that abstracts over ISAs and other finnicky hardware details that are under constant short term churn. It's just that peripherals themselves have become so incredibly complex that many of them now require their own embedded systems in o…

> privileged userspace layer

BS. Either we're privileged and can copy their precious content, or they're privileged and we cannot.

The current status quo is they sit above us in the truly privileged hardware modes while we are isolated, virtualized and sandboxed for their safety. It's not our computers anymore, they're just allowing us to use them.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#434

Post by saurik »

kccqzy wrote: post #227
no_time wrote: post #143

The author is correct in that media DRM is tied to GPU vendors on the field right now. But hardware backed DRM can be so much more invasive beyond that. I have no doubts the long term goal of MS is to have a Windows version of Play Integrity.[0] So total control over everything that happens on your device. Just to give an example of what could happen if this becomes reality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Enviro…

I have trouble understanding your use of the term DRM. Media DRM makes sense: the copyright holders want to "manage" their rights digitally. How is that relevant to Play Integrity or WEI? Whose right is being protected or managed? If I have an Android without Play Integrity there are certain apps that will not run, but I don't see any rights being managed here: an app developer has the right to refuse service just li…

The ability for someone with a news article or a game to only have you experience it if you pay their fee or watch their ads, preventing you from copying the content off your device or modifying it in some way that is unauthorized (removing ads or otherwise modifying the behavior to circumvent protection mechanisms) is pretty obviously the exact same idea -- not some mere metaphor -- and is a protection of the exact same "right" conferred by the exact same laws as allowing someone with a movie to only have you see it if you pay their fee or watch their ads... I am honestly having a difficult time understanding your confusion here :/.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#435

Post by db48x »

everdrive wrote: post #382
db48x wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just a little cpu and some nonvolatile memory running a program. You can send it messages, and it will send back replies, but you cannot control which program is running on it. Of course this is vague enough that it could implement almost anything you want. What makes it a TPM is the protocol it answers to. The TPM has a hardware RNG, and you can just ask it for some random numbers. That’s very simple. You can h…

This was a really useful explanation, thank you.

You’re welcome.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#436

Post by kccqzy »

saurik wrote: post #434
kccqzy wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have trouble understanding your use of the term DRM. Media DRM makes sense: the copyright holders want to "manage" their rights digitally. How is that relevant to Play Integrity or WEI? Whose right is being protected or managed? If I have an Android without Play Integrity there are certain apps that will not run, but I don't see any rights being managed here: an app developer has the right to refuse service just li…

The ability for someone with a news article or a game to only have you experience it if you pay their fee or watch their ads, preventing you from copying the content off your device or modifying it in some way that is unauthorized (removing ads or otherwise modifying the behavior to circumvent protection mechanisms) is pretty obviously the exact same idea -- not some mere metaphor -- and is a protection of the exact…

You are still talking about DRM in the context of copyright. If someone has a news article or a game, they have copyright on that article or game and they use DRM to protect their copyright. All these are applications of DRM.

Applications like Play Integrity could be quite different: say a bank can refuse to move money if your instructions to move money comes from a device deemed not trustworthy by Play Integrity. That's like a bank can refuse to let you into their branch if you are dressed in swimwear. A game can also deploy this tech for anti-cheating purposes; really no different from a real-world casino refusing a customer who is known to be good at card counting.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#437

Post by fc417fc802 »

mjg59 wrote: post #419
fc417fc802 wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal amount of attestation on a general purpose computer which is owned by me is zero. Any nonzero amount implies that control of the device has not actually been turned over to me. It implies not only the slippery slope to which you refer but also things about back doors and opportunity for dystopian political regimes and much more. When it comes to financial or legal matters (and this includes online banking)…

You think there's no value in your laptop being able to attest its state to your phone in order to give you confidence it hasn't been tampered with? That's something that would be entirely under your control.

[dead]

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#438

Post by fc417fc802 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #433
fc417fc802 wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Operating systems" do not operate anything anymore. Not entirely fair. There is still a kernel and a privileged userspace layer. That hasn't changed. The OS implements a common API that abstracts over ISAs and other finnicky hardware details that are under constant short term churn. It's just that peripherals themselves have become so incredibly complex that many of them now require their own embedded systems in o…

> privileged userspace layer BS. Either we're privileged and can copy their precious content, or they're privileged and we cannot. The current status quo is they sit above us in the truly privileged hardware modes while we are isolated, virtualized and sandboxed for their safety. It's not our computers anymore, they're just allowing us to use them.

Not what I meant. For example, on most mainstream linux distributions systemd fulfills the role of privileged userspace layer that I was referring to there.

> truly privileged hardware modes

The presence of a hypervisor doesn't imply paravirtualized hardware. Neither does the presence of an entire OS on modern GPUs imply a reduction in kernel responsibilities. Ring 0 is still ring 0. The OS is still managing and abstracting hardware in the same way that it always was.

That doesn't mean that these other things aren't concerning developments. Particularly having an entire unauditable shadow OS running on the CPU is an incredibly dystopian scenario that almost seems unbelievable. But technical accuracy is important when discussing these things.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#439

Post by Wowfunhappy »

teeray wrote: post #225
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The analogue loophole will remain open until there's a HDMI to optical nerve technology that we're all forced to get at birth. This is kind of a pointless tangent, but you might not have to go that far. It's probably hard to get a recording of the Apple Vision Pro for instance.

Likely not an issue. Convincing consumers to strap a brick to their face has proven to be a persistent challenge, which even Apple has not been able to overcome. However, there is also a nontrivial percentage of the population who medically cannot use VR/AR. This population is large enough that there is a market for "2D Glasses" for removing 3D effects from movies in cinemas. Releasing a title as a VR exclusive means…

Yes, this is why I called it "kind of a pointless tangent". :)

However, the reason I think it's only "kind of" pointless... it is in fact true that as far as I know, there is no way to pirate any of the "immersive" TV shows Apple has released. You can't watch them on any other VR headset, or even watch some 2D version on a flat screen.

Which means there are videos out there in the world right now which are immune from the analog loophole, at least as far as I know. It's a very small subset of all the content that has been produced, and it will stay that way, but it does exist.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#440

Post by rustcleaner »

advael wrote: post #352
rustcleaner wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still allow for the multimillion dollar industrial dozen-megamachine makers.

So the idea is to ban the practice for smaller players without the scale to eat the costs? No thanks, an outright ban is necessary. This will not prevent manufacturers from doing business no matter how they may whine about it, and frankly if this does somehow kill their business it should

The idea is to make it almost completely commercially unviable to sell locked down DRM hardware to small players, and only somewhat harder for XYZ Healthcare to buy the multimillion dollar GE MRI machine unless the MRI is fully open and compliant (XYZ can borrow and amortize, but Joe can't do that to buy playstations and cars).
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