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Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

chuckwnelson.com

431–440 of 504 posts

Re: Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

#431
post #7

> Enter 2024 with AI. The top 20% of search results are a wall of text from AI... I'll be the contrarian here and say I actually like Google's AI Overview? For the first time in a long time, I can search for an answer to a question and, instead of getting annoying ads and SEO-optimized uselessness, I actually get an answer. Google is finally useful again. That said, once Google screws with this and starts making sear…

Google's AI summary of search results hallucinates. You might like it, but you may also end up seeing, and believing in, something that just doesn't exist. For example, it says there's a sequel to a Disney film called Encanto, and there just isn't. https://bsky.app/profile/jasonschreier.bsky.social/post/3lee...

It also misidentified an article by Bernard Vonnegut about ice crystals as written by Kurt Vonnegut

Re: Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

#432
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't paraphrase, I put the exact quote[1] I had copied earlier from goodreads in google and got garbage. I use only local LLM's, So if anyone has Open AI's search tools give it a shot. [1] "Few hundred years of Western society that we have lost the ability to memorise vast amounts of information." ― Lynne Kelly, Memory Craft: Improve your memory using the most powerful methods from around the world

Open AI fails here: https://chatgpt.com/share/6770c547-2f90-8004-ba41-21bfa4d3a7... Curious about your local LLM usage -- do you have that documented, or can you recommend sources on how to get started in that domain? I self host most of my infrastructure, but not LLMs so far. Do you need special hardware? How do you interact with the LLMs? How to you keep them updated? Do you fine tune/do any training, or just of th…

I will document it and share with you.

Re: Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

#433
I am working with a new for me tech, and got stuck integrating an SDK from a hardware manufacturer into my runtime. The SDK is in C, and my runtime isn’t.

A friend suggested to use his LLM wrangling skills to get the SDK adapted. The results were interesting, but we wasted a day or two on trying to make it actually work and failed.

Then it turned out I can call C code from within my runtime, which the LLM did not point out. I figured out the specifics with a bit of googling and successfully managed to call C functions. Yet there were still issues in parsing the data, now in C SDK itself; the friend used different LLMs to refactor and comment C code, but they did a bad job with missing implementations and a lot of general obvious comments (an empty deinitialization function with “clean up as needed” comment and so on).

Then it turned out there was an SDK for my runtime. I just did not search enough. Of course, the LLM would not say that. The LLM would just obediently try to do what it’s asked to do and never question why.

Re: Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

#434
post #340

Just sharing an anecdote: I was searching for a quote that I'd heard in an audiobook the other day. I just had the general paraphrase, and didn't feel like scanning through the chapters to go find it. This was a somewhat obscure source. Google had just straight garbage for me. The quote was political in nature, and I felt like the results were fighting general tone-policing filters and were tuned for recent events. o…

A week ago, I was looking for the name of a semi obscure late 90ies computer game. Google could not help me given the description i gave Described it to ChatGPT, and we had a back and forth where I explained why the games it suggested me weren’t right, it eventually found the correct game (Nocturne) and was able to explain to me that half of the things I remembered from the game were just plain wrong, and that’s why…

Wow! A million thanks goes to you! I never thought of using ChatGPT to find an old book I had 30 years ago! I just found it! Epic! I use ChatGPT but never tried this before! Thank you, thank you thank you!

Re: Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the savvy are using LLMs now, but they’re also reckoning with two things: * you have to check an LLM result, especially if it cites something (because it may or may not exist) * you can’t cite an LLM result It’s a useful tool, but it lacks certain utility features that a useful web + effective search has. Or had.

> * you have to check an LLM result, especially if it cites something (because it may or may not exist) You think that you don't have the check the link at the top of the page from a google search? In fact, last I checked, for every google search I do, I have literally hit the page down key before starting to read. > * you can’t cite an LLM result And you think you can cite the top search result from a google search?

Of course you can. The top search result from a Google search yeilds (eventually) a URL —a uniform resource locator— which is something that can be cited.

Re: Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLM are non deterministic by nature.

Is this really true? The linear algebra is deterministic, although maybe there is some chaotic behavior with floating point handling. The non deterministic part mostly comes from intentionally added randomness, which can be turned off right? Maybe the argument is that if you turn off the randomness you don’t have an LLM like result any more?

Floats are deterministic too (this winds up being helpful if you want to do something like test an algorithm on every single float); you just might get different deterministic outcomes on different compilation targets or with threaded intermediate values.

The argument is, as you suggest, that without randomness you don't have an LLM-like result any more. You _can_ use the most likely token every time, or beam search, or any number of other strategies to try to tease out an answer. Doing so gives you a completely different result distribution, and it's not even guaranteed to give a "likely" output (imagine, e.g., a string of tokens that are all 10% likely for any greedy choice, vs a different string where the first is 9% and the remainder are 90% -- with a 10-token answer the second option is 387 million times more likely with random sampling but will never happen with a simple deterministic strategy, and you can tweak the example slightly to keep beam search and similar from finding good results).

That brings up an interesting UI/UX question.

Suppose (as a simplified example) that you have a simple yes/no question and only know the answer probabilistically, something like "will it rain tomorrow" with an appropriate answer being "yes" 60% of the time and "no" 40%. Do you try to lengthen the answer to include that uncertainty? Do you respond "yes" always? 60% of the time? To 60% of the users and then deterministically for a period of time for each user to prevent flip-flopping answers?

The LD50 question is just a more complicated version of that conundrum. The model isn't quite sure. The question forces its hand a bit in terms of the classes of answers. What should its result distribution be?

Re: Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

#437
post #387
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What will happen is that when you ask the AI to summarize a book to remove the fluff, it will inject random mentions of how the main character decided to drink a Coke. Let's go with truly open models! you say. That way we can be sure there are no shoddy behind-the-scenes deal going on between the model provider and some company or government. But the ads are in the training data , they are part of the fabric of the w…

Actually, training it yourself is probably better in terms of copyright. If you train an LLM that only you use, from books you own, I don't see how that is actually illegal. As long as you're not selling the LLM or content it generates is there any legal issue?

> If you train an LLM that only you use, from books you own, I don't see how that is actually illegal.

But it won't be functional, because Large Language Models requires far more samples than your private library, at least if you want it to do things that you couldn't solve with a much simpler deterministic search.

For example, usefully extending the document "Which book had the sarcastic one-armed antagonist?" with another sentence that happens to also be the answer.

Re: Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

#438
post #12
post #7

> Enter 2024 with AI. The top 20% of search results are a wall of text from AI... I'll be the contrarian here and say I actually like Google's AI Overview? For the first time in a long time, I can search for an answer to a question and, instead of getting annoying ads and SEO-optimized uselessness, I actually get an answer. Google is finally useful again. That said, once Google screws with this and starts making sear…

It would be great if it wasn't completely wrong 50% of the time.

The difficulty of verifying the answer isn't-wrong is another important factor. Bad search results are often obvious, but LLM nonsense can have tricky falsehoods.

If a process gives false results half the time, and verifying any result takes half as long as deriving a correct solution yourself... Well, I don't know the limiting sum of the infinite series offhand, but it's a terrible tool.

Re: Google's Results Are Infested, Open AI Is Using Their Playbook from the 2000s

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No matter how many times I tell some LLM I want it to ask clarifying questions to provide better answers, it just won't You're telling me there's a modern frontier model that refused to ask clarifying questions after you told it to?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but yes, when it asks questions they are trivial disambiguation of mainly language, and never information seeking like you might expect when doing more than superficial investigation

If you can't tell if I'm being sarcastic about an LLM asking clarifying questions, you are possibly not great at using LLMs.

Prompting isn't necessarily the career some people wanted was sold as, but it's not a bad idea to practice a bit and build a sense of what a clear and effective prompt looks like.

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To be clear, I get telling people it's a "you" problem every time an issue with LLMs comes up isn't helpful... but sometimes the disconnect between someone's claimed experience, and what little most people actually can agree LLMs are capable of is so great that it must be PEBCAK.

I just tried the original checkpoint of GPT 3.5 Turbo and it was able to handle drilling up and down in specificity as appropriate with the prompt: "I need you to help me remember a movie. Ask clarifying questions as we go along."

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