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Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

marinecorpstimes.com

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Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#431

Post by psunavy03 »

the5avage wrote: post #254
psunavy03 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what the report is alleged to have said. This news story alleges that he executed proper emergency procedures, but for the WRONG emergency. It alleges he ejected per the procedure for out-of-control flight when what he actually (allegedly) had was partial electrical failure with operable standby instruments. Which is not a situation mandating immediate ejection.

When a modern aircaft like this has an electrical failure I would feel very uncomfortable. He also lost part of his displays during conditions with little sight. So imo the question should be if it would have been possible for him to check if the airplane is really out of control, in a way that it wouldn't cost his life if it was.

If his standby instruments were operable, the answer to that question is likely "yes." Having not flown a STOVL aircraft, the only part I can't speak to is whether his thrust vectoring/lift fan was in an unknown configuration, and how that plays into things. But generally out-of-control flight results from a spike in angle of attack at low speeds leading to aerodynamic stall and departure, and modern fly-by-wire aircraft are highly resistant to this.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#432

Post by lumost »

Peteragain wrote: post #241
lumost wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fighter pilots are extremely highly trained individuals. While data is scarce for the exact dollar cost - an F-22 pilot costs roughly 11 Million USD to train, pilots are expected to use judgement and be capable of dealing with high pressure/ambiguous outcomes.

Yes. And pilots are harder to replace than planes. The manual will say "if in doubt, punch out". Being in doubt is the issue: should he have been able to figure out he was safe in the time it took to eject? There is the question, and it is a question of training, not moral character.

That’s why they have reviews of these items. Ultimately, a fighter pilot is piloting a very expensive and very dangerous aircraft, if they can’t use good judgement - then they can’t be trusted to operate the aircraft. As an example, a us navy pilot mistook a training exercise for a live fire mission and shot down a us Air Force jet. Mistakes were made in the mission setup, but critically - the pilot should have used judgement to change the mission parameters rather than execute what he believed to be the order.

https://www.twz.com/the-bizarre-story-of-how-a-navy-f-14-sho...

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#433

Post by lucidphreak »

Standards and Evaluation pilots are almost like test pilots.. They are expected to stick with their aircraft perhaps a little longer than normal. However, if a pilot has no outside reference to the horizon (the rain storm he was in), and his sensors/instruments are deemed unreliable, I would have done the same thing. Its one thing to lose a jet, which can be replaced - its another to lose a pilot where countless hours of training have been invested ... Sucks for him, but at least he is still flying and gets the pick of the littler for his next assignment. I would assume he will do another tour and then retire. People will be "funny" around him going forward and he will not enjoy the camaraderie that he has grown used to in the Corps.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#434

Post by drweevil »

On reading the incident report it becomes apparent that the flight display system contributed significantly to this incident, not just in failing, but also by its design. It reminds me a lot of the collision incidents in the Sea of Japan, where touchscreen displays were implicated. In this case, among other things, losing the PCD meant losing the backup radio. From page 35 of Pt. 1 of the incident report:

>"a. Discussion: MP experienced a failure of COM-A and COM-B. The Backup Radio was still functional; however, with a PCD failure, MP would have been unable to change frequencies via the PCD. The F-35B has radio knobs as an alternative; however, they are notoriously unreliable. Most pilots resort solely to changing frequencies via the PCD. This increases pilot workload and decreases situational awareness because pilots must access this feature via a drop-down menu which covers half of one portal. Changing frequencies this way is especially difficult in high workload situations such as when flying formation and/or in instrument meteorological conditions. The F-35 is also equipped with a voice activated communication control system that has not functioned since 30P05 software was installed."

Wow. So, when losing main coms, the pilot could not easily change to the backup radio in a timely and safe manner, to, say, tell his wingman to take the lead. He couldn't use voice commands, which should have been there, but oh well. The PCB was down, but even if up it is cumbersome to access the backup radio. The knobs weren't "reliable", per report. It is legit hard to understand how this is possible in such an advanced and costly aircraft. I'd think that the Commandant of the USMC has bigger fish to fry than the pilot. Oh, and I'd love to see the recommendation but it is redacted.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#435

Post by chipdart »

bumby wrote: post #388
chipdart wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (...) and they keep winning That's the textbook definition of survivorship bias. It's like a lottery winner boasting about his winning strategy that everyone else is just not able to learn.

I read the OP differently. I think there can be many angles to a person's identity makeup and they don't always cohere perfectly. A person can have their identity in "entrepreneurial libertarian" while also having it as "someone who comes from a family valuing military service". Humans aren't always perfectly rational when it comes to their different values/tribal identities. There are a lot of people who join the mi…

My answer was not touching on the topic of identity. I'm referring to the relationship between cause ad effect.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#436

Post by bluGill »

chipdart wrote: post #395
bluGill wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point do we conclude the lottery isn't as random as they claim if one person keeps winning. Statistically someone will win, there are good odds someone will win twice, but the odds of anyone winning 3 times is almost zero.

> At what point do we conclude the lottery isn't as random as they claim if one person keeps winning. The whole thing about survivorship bias is that you make a critical failure in analysis when confusing partial observations of post-facto results with causality.

The point of statistics (one of many) is to figure out how many observations we need. If someone wins the lottery 10 times with their system I will assume that they have a good system (if they have a lot of losses as well it means the system isn't perfect, but it still works), but if you only win once and never enter again I assume it is survivorship basis. Of course by winning the lottery I mean win a large jackpot - most have smaller prizes that you have high odds of winning many times if you play often enough.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#437

Post by fatbird »

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #397

It all makes sense, but it must have a chilling effect on any military aviator reading this who finds themselves in a position to consider doing the same.Z Cirrus flight instruction uses the military statistic that historically military aviators have had a really strong negative bias to ejection during training compared to in combat. Part of the rationale was that of course ejecting during combat is easy to save face…

It's not that he could have reasoned his way to not ejecting, it's that the standby instruments were still functioning, and are there for just this moment. He could have continued without ejecting based on that alone.

Reading between the lines, he flinched, and while that was in line with the manual, the manual wasn't good enough, and as someone below said: the position from which he was dismissed was one where they evaluate, criticize and extend the manual. Ejecting too soon wasn't a failure of due diligence, but it disqualified him from a position where "in line with the manual" isn't good enough.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#438

Post by asacrowflies »

whatshisface wrote: post #413
cafard wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but who acquired the land for them?

[flagged]

This is basically entirely false ... They would only move into settle AFTER the government clears the land of most natives and signed "treaties" with others. Along with mass relocation and government programs to incentivize the settlers like encouraging the military to kill all Buffalo on site or actively salt spring water sources in favour of European deep wells.etc.etc.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#439

Post by [deleted] »

bumby wrote: post #420
ajuc wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works the exact opposite way. People from totalitarian shitholes improvise a lot more than people from functioning democracies (because they have to improvise to survive daily life). And they trust their state and follow the rules a lot less (and for a good reason - their state exploits and lies to them to a degree you can't imagine living in a free country). USA wouldn't send its army to Mexico with 12 hours of f…

> And they trust their state and follow the rules a lot less It was my understanding that the opposite was true in Ukraine early in the conflict. Russia suffered high casualties because they still relied on a central command structure and field leaders were reluctant to make decisions without the express validation of their superiors. This led to them being sitting ducks as they waited for confirmation, and resulted…

[deleted]

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#440

Post by s1artibartfast »

wbl wrote: post #393
s1artibartfast wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wikipedia page lists 9 digit flyaway costs for other Gripen versions, so even if it includes some support, the bulk of the price is the jet. Edit: 5th generation jets are just incredibly expensive. I can't imagine how mad Turkey was when the US bilked them for their F35s, keeping both the jets and the billions Turkey paid.

Shouldn't have planned to let Russia see the radar returns then.

Interesting. My understanding is that the US refused to deliver after Turkey bought S-400 systems from Russia, and will still sell the F-35 to Turkey if they stop. Do the systems share radar returns with mother Russia or what exactly is the concern?

https://web.archive.org/web/20240202005500/https://ca.news.y...

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