Earlier quoted context omitted.
I always get the Sam Bankman-Fried vibes from him
SBF is dramatically less scary than Altman. Which is why he’s doing 30+ for being likewise a crook but dramatically less dangerous to Enlightenment civilization in the large. SBF was trying to pocket the difference on a regionally lax regulatory climate. Felon? Sure thing. By all means, hand down a sentence. It’s fraud. Altman has blown straight past the “personal financial gain” fraud line multiple times and has ama…
Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
431–440 of 854 posts
Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
#432Earlier quoted context omitted.
> does not address the substance of any claims for openAI specifically Well, so what ? Parent-poster is suggesting there's a pattern to Altman's conduct in a similar set of situations, and a precedent that we should bear in mind when looking at more-recent stuff. By it's very nature, that kind of argument has to focus on past events. While you might reasonably disagree with their conclusion, it seems you're demanding…
> Well, so what? > While you might reasonably disagree with their conclusion What I want is for people to actually discuss the topic as opposed to doing a roundabout dismissal that is devoid of substance. > Yet you literally just did that Now you are catching on! I was worried that I was being too subtle. Indeed I did do that! Annoying isn't it? Especially when I am simply fighting fire with fire and showing why this…
As I already said, they are discussing the topic of [what probably happened in a controversy between Sam Altman and the OpenAI board], by comparing it to [another controversy involving Sam Altman and another board].
That's related and relevant data. You're the one driving all the meta-noise here, with your illogical attempt to gatekeep it as off-topic.
> > You ignored the substance of their comment--relevant past events--to attack it as too "meta."
> Now you are catching on! I was worried that I was being too subtle. Indeed I did do that! Annoying isn't it?
You're the only one who has done it so far. You're not being satirically clever, just annoying.
Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
#433Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
> Do look up who Walter Bright is Stupid arguments are stupid, regardless of who said them. And, success doesn't make one right.
Indubitably true. Yet I am one of those rarefied people who make bright arguments.
Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
#434Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds like he outsmarted them and they were holding back the organization.
Lying is not "outsmarting", it's lying. As for "holding back the organization", if we're talking about existential risk, I want them to be held back. These people have no business being stewards of any technology that might be an existential risk.
Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
#435Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m no huge fan of the bond villains in general, but this thread isn’t about Musk or whoever being a dick. And even if it were, Musk builds the best rockets ever and stuff like that and to a first approximation knows how they work. Mark at a minimum is the Corp Dev CEO of a generation and I’d argue more. I’d argue he is the first person to create an accurate-ish mental model mapping IRL human mechanism design into a…
No Musk builds nothing. There is a huge team he leads, consisting of engineers and scientists and they develop technology that Musk then sells. He's a glorified cars salesman. Maybe he was essential to get the rockets built, but neither did he build them, nor contribute essential technical details, so that it would be uniquely him who could do it given same financial backing.
Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
#436Classic NPD behavior from the sound of it (triangulating board members, lying/withholding, etc). Wouldn't be surprised if the return was predicated by promises to do/be better or extreme gaslighting. Worth people studying the disorder and learning to spot it—can save you a lot of trouble.
Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
#437Earlier quoted context omitted.
> amoral wealth-hoarders They're not hoarding wealth. They don't have any Scrooge McDuck cash faults. Their money is all invested , i.e. put to work creating things that people want. > moralists ... capitalists History shows us that societies based on morals (religious, ideological) fare extremely poorly compared with societies based on rights (free markets). Like it or not, for a large, prosperous society you must h…
Mesopothemia was based on morals as far as we know, and they lay the foundation for many technical and scientific advances. And your rights are based on religious and ideological morals. Why do you believe the debate about Roe v. Wade exists? Why do we consider infidelity so bad it can break a contract of marriage? What is marriage? Those are not laws of nature.
As for abortion, the debate there rests on a conflict of the rights of two people, and there isn't any clear answer to it based on rights.
Marriage is tangled up with the rights of children. Children are not fully formed humans and we allot them a subset of the rights of adults. Marriage without children is an issue of morality, not rights.
I don't know what mesopothemia is.
Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
#438Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "real estate holdings" Real estate is not cash. It's cash spent . > History also shows us that sooner or later, unbounded wealth disparity ends poorly for the wealthy. History also shows us that societies without wealth disparity end up poorly for everyone . As in starving. > You can have big business without robber barons. Excellent. Go ahead and build one, compete and put Scrooge McDuck out of business.
> societies without wealth disparity end up poorly for everyone. As in starving. If this is meant to be a reference to Soviet-style communism, then all that shows is that centrally planned economies run by dictators end up poorly for everyone. They don't end up without wealth disparity, though. In fact, USSR had the highest wealth disparity at "peak communism" under Stalin, when well-off party bureaucrats and high-ra…
Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
#439Earlier quoted context omitted.
> amoral wealth-hoarders They're not hoarding wealth. They don't have any Scrooge McDuck cash faults. Their money is all invested , i.e. put to work creating things that people want. > moralists ... capitalists History shows us that societies based on morals (religious, ideological) fare extremely poorly compared with societies based on rights (free markets). Like it or not, for a large, prosperous society you must h…
With extreme inequity, who's gonna make all the smaller bets? Lost in the food fight over today's robberbarons is recognition that small and medium new business formation continues to decline. IMHO, those are the job creators and wealth creation (vs mere wealth transfer) I prefer we boosted. I trust billionaires will somehow muddle along with or without our help.
Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting
#440Sure, a lot of people have good things to say about Altman. But a lot of people have _very_ bad things to say about him.
If you have encountered deceptive, manipulative people in the past, and have since educated yourself on how these people operate, it is clear as day that Sam is a deceptive, manipulative person.
A lot of people cannot conceive of the idea that this could be true simply because they have never encountered such people in real life or their only exposure to them is through seeing Frank Underwood in House of Cards.
People like this are very good at covering their tracks. But sometimes things slip through the cracks and become red flags. One red flag is not usually enough to determine the entirety of someone's character. But enough red flags start to paint a picture...
- Helen Toner, former OAI board member, accusing him of outright lying
- Ilya Sutskever and Mira Murati allegedly raising concerns about his leadership style as creating a toxic work environment, manipulating, pitting executives against each other, lying, etc.
- Claims from recently-resigned members of OAI's safety team that he was deceptive and manipulative
- PG's blogs stating that Altman could become king of a cannibal island (read: reality distortion field / cult leader potential)
- Allegations of abuse from Annie Altman, his sister
- Allegations of him using manipulative behavior at Reddit to have a former CEO fired (cannot find the link to the original Reddit post describing this, hopefully someone can leave a comment with it)
- Allegations of being fired from YC due to prioritizing his own interests over YC's
Ultimately, none of these things on their own are damning evidence of him being deceptive and manipulative. But when they start to stack up, you have to keep in mind that there is usually no smoke without fire...