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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

431–440 of 448 posts

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slavery, throughout history, was generally not seen as desirable. Rather, it was either seen as a necessary evil, upon which a "logical rationale" (read: cognitive dissonance) was built up to justify it, or as a form of punishment. Aristotle actually predicted its end about 2000 years before it happened [1]: --- For if every instrument could accomplish its own work, obeying or anticipating the will of others, like th…

That is an immense leap from "if we could have machines do it, we wouldn't have slaves do it" to seeing slavery as undesirable. Aristotle was a staunch believer in "natural slaves" who didn't have the faculty of rational deliberation and therefore were (and should be) guided by those who do have that faculty. This line of thought can be traced all the way through to the modern day, and obviously well up to abolition.…

Wiki has a reasonable listing of the countless times slavery was abolished throughout history. [1] That list should be considered extremely incomplete, as it happened with quite the regularity, all around the globe. And so even calling something "the" abolitionist movement is a misnomer. Abolitionist movements, political leaders, and abolitionary successes have existed for thousands of years, and likely for as long as slavery itself has existed.

But it never remained abolished because of a simple logical problem you run into. The reality of the world - past, present, and future - is that stronger powers dominate weaker powers -- the same reality upon which Aristotle based his cognitive dissonance. And so so long as slavery provided a significant material benefit, powers that embraced slavery would dominate those that did not. And that dominance would inevitably lead to the institution (or reinstitution) of slavery in the weaker powers. The British Empire and its spread of slavery around the globe is but one of many examples.

So you saw this regular flip flopping. One ideologically minded leader would end slavery, only for it to come back later. What changed with the industrial revolution is that the latest end of slavery no longer had any particularly negative consequences, instead we saw the exact opposite. Countries that abolished slavery, which was primarily a rural/plantation based phenomena, actually started to grow exceptionally rapidly on the back of the emerging systems of industrial wage labor, while rural and plantation style production became less and less economically relevant. Slavery had become obsolete.

---

There's some interesting parallels with slavery and modern day conscriptions. A country locks up its borders, prevents people from leaving, starts forcibly conscripting them into the military, gives them a gun, and sends them off to die. This is utterly barbaric, and most people would agree with such. Yet it remains a thing, and will remain a thing for the foreseeable future, for the exact same reason that slavery was perpetuated.

Countries that turn to conscription will be more powerful than those that don't. When this reality becomes no longer true (perhaps due to war becoming more mechanical in nature) we'll certainly finally abolish this barbaric behavior, and then claim it's due to some 'greater moral understanding', as if people alive today can't see with their own two eyes what an unnatural and abhorrent behavior this is. Of course we can! But trying to permanently stop something that's a significant means to power is like trying to stop a train by walking in front of it.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_abolition_of_slave...

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ifs contingent on whens and you end up with a blob anyway. Until you get to the blob everybody's life is miserable because a line is daft. This is applying the terrible thinking that gives us micro service hell to city planning.

> a line is daft I think your argumentation rests on this, but you should explain why it's daft and how it makes people's lives miserable. I would personally enjoy having 20 minute access to any place in the city I live (which is far from having 9 million people) and still have a vast open space nearby.

Why do you think a linear city would give you 20 minute access to any place in the city? Clearly travel time would increase linearly with distance.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.

You wrote the 40M comment!

Do I win a prize?

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#435
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually Biden is worse on Saudi than Trump. Mainly because when Trump was in power the democrats and media would keep pressure on Trump. Whereas now, as a genocide is happening the media isn't providing as much pressure as it would of Trump was doing it. Also no need to regurgitate old irrelevant news, the complete 180 from Biden is the biggest slap in the face for people who were fighting for gender/human/civil rig…

Sorry but, this is just flailing your arms around hoping to hit something, Trump didn't care one bit what the opposition nor the media said about him, and maybe just maybe the media isn't as critical of Biden because he isn't as divisive as Trump was. And what genocide would that be? >Also, Biden is yet to go after Kushner for that $2bn bribe/corruption payment First of all not Biden's job to prosecute anyone and sec…

Wow a mythbusters fan and a genocide denier. Very cool. Very Realpolitik.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I didn't say that you are indifferent to nor pro-slavery. I said that you'd land on the conclusion of allowing it, presumably despite your own personal preferences. Many people who opposed abolition also personally opposed slavery, but used arguments identical to yours to oppose action against slavery . The lack of action would've, obviously, allowed slavery to persist indefinitely. Can you explain how (or if) yo…

My position is quite simple: I do not believe it's possible to compare the righteousness of cultures, certainly not in a way as reductive as you've proposed, in a way that conveniently makes our culture (America) gooder and the others (Saudi Arabia) badder. Please re-read my original comment, I specifically proposed offering cultural asylum as a way to offer western moral values to others who want to live according t…

Got it, so post-abolition United States is not “more righteous,” even on the dimension of human rights, than pre-abolition United States. It is, as you say, “impossible” to compare them. You don’t actually explain how you get from this position to the assertion you would be proactive against slavery, but I think the utter nonsense of the first claim reveals sufficient moral confusion by itself. You’re just trapped between “can’t criticize modern slavers” and “can’t say I accept slavers of the past,” which obviously is totally incoherent.

Not clear what point you’re arguing against by saying “HDI says UAE is good yet you don’t agree with it!” Why on earth would I defer full moral judgment to HDI?

I never claimed my moral system is objective, so I’m also not sure what facade you’re referring to.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My position is quite simple: I do not believe it's possible to compare the righteousness of cultures, certainly not in a way as reductive as you've proposed, in a way that conveniently makes our culture (America) gooder and the others (Saudi Arabia) badder. Please re-read my original comment, I specifically proposed offering cultural asylum as a way to offer western moral values to others who want to live according t…

Got it, so post-abolition United States is not “more righteous,” even on the dimension of human rights, than pre-abolition United States. It is, as you say, “impossible” to compare them. You don’t actually explain how you get from this position to the assertion you would be proactive against slavery, but I think the utter nonsense of the first claim reveals sufficient moral confusion by itself. You’re just trapped be…

I openly criticise Dubai for their slavery, I refuse to visit Dubai for that reason alone. However, I refuse to say that Dubai is objectively less moral than the United States because morality is relative to the culture that defines it, in the same way I refuse to say that sushi is objectively better than pizza (despite sushi obviously being superior to pizza).

You may assert it but morality is not defined by or measured in outcomes, morality is a cultural product. If your moral system is not objective, if your moral system is a culturally-influenced personal belief in what is right and wrong, it is totally incoherent to say that Saudi Arabia has not made moral progress or that they have not used "modern thinking" because by their moral standards they have, and by their moral standards you (and I) are the immoral.

If you'd like to compare the United States to Saudi Arabia on human rights, press freedom, education, crime, freedom of religion, gender discrimination, do that. They have outcomes that we can measure, and don't worry, they're influenced by morality, so you can still pass judgement.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got it, so post-abolition United States is not “more righteous,” even on the dimension of human rights, than pre-abolition United States. It is, as you say, “impossible” to compare them. You don’t actually explain how you get from this position to the assertion you would be proactive against slavery, but I think the utter nonsense of the first claim reveals sufficient moral confusion by itself. You’re just trapped be…

I openly criticise Dubai for their slavery, I refuse to visit Dubai for that reason alone. However, I refuse to say that Dubai is objectively less moral than the United States because morality is relative to the culture that defines it, in the same way I refuse to say that sushi is objectively better than pizza (despite sushi obviously being superior to pizza). You may assert it but morality is not defined by or meas…

What's there to criticize if it's not bad?

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#439

No great surprise, they have form here. The Saudis announced six megaprojects in 2005. King Abdullah Economic City was the only one that went anywhere. I believe it was supposed to have 2 million people and reached about 7 thousand. They've kicked people out of the area, killed at least one person, trashed the area with initial construction efforts (I've driven past) and now the inevitable seems to be coming to pass…

Is Dubai really diversified away from oil? My naive impression is that it’s a major center for capital, with most of that capital coming from oil. Saudi diversification from oil is a fantasy. The culture is medieval from the POV of the rest of the world, and the hostile climate is only getting worse.

In 2018 bout 67% of Saudi's exports were essentially zero-value-add extracted oil & gas. About 12% were higher-value chemicals (still mostly basic chemicals, though some amount of super-high-value advanced materials or agrichemical or specialty chemicals). Value-added chemical exports as a % of total exports increased by 2021 although the data now includes a giant block for "trade data discrepancy", so results are not directly comparable to 2018.

In 2018 "only" 43% of UAE's exports were zero-value-add extracted oil & gas. 11-12% was "Gold, Diamonds, Precious Metals"(?). The rest is pretty evenly split between very different industries - value-added chemicals, electronics, cars, metals, industrial machines, and textiles.

Overall, UAE pulls in a higher % of their foreign currency from non-oil-and-gas economic activity than Saudi does, but still leans heavily on it for 40-60% of their exports. Saudi exports ~20% more oil & gas than UAE on a nominal total USD basis. However, UAE's total exports are 30-40% higher than Saudi's on a total USD basis. So UAE sells less oil, more other stuff.

If I had to pick, I'd definitely rather be in Dubai's position than Saudi's. I've also lived in both places, and I'd definitely say that Dubai appeared to have a more diverse economy and drew from a deeper talent pool (mostly immigrant-based, though).

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#440
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to take yourself back to the past and imagine the idea of putting a seemingly endless number of electrical poles everywhere to carry telephony and electrical signals anywhere in the country, instantly. Poles that would become completely inoperable if the cable was damaged, lethal to anybody who touched them, fire hazards waiting to happen in case of natural disaster or just deterioration, and so on endlessly. And…

> Try to take yourself back to the past and imagine the idea of putting a seemingly endless number of electrical poles everywhere to carry telephony and electrical signals anywhere in the country, But that's not what we did. Folks at the start of the process might have imagined that eventual situation, but they built up small networks, then a skeleton network with human connections (telegraph), then human driven rout…

Of course you're right that everything starts with the first step, but it increasingly seems that we're averse to even taking that step. And I'd also argue that the dramatic differences in economic and technological 'power' available today also must change what is considered a large scale. Skyscrapers, for one example, were once a visionary undertaking but have long since become completely mundane construction/engineering projects.

The Line was designed to be literally modular, being made up of 135 modules of less than a km in length each. That such a "vision" is considered exceptional, to the point of even not being realistic, is something that to me feels like a complete deterioration of the vision and ambition in society.

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