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Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

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Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#431

Post by opportune »

atoav wrote: post #321
echelon wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The narrative on Twitter/TikTok that every Millenial and GenZ is starving to death and on the brink of being homeless is really exhausting. The algorithm has turned (some) people into whiners and doomers. It really sucks to watch them take defeatist attitudes on everything in life. I see lots of these young 20-somethings on Reddit thinking their lives are over. It's absurd. They have their entire lives ahead of the…

As someone who is doing well financially I don't think you found the reason. The gist of it is: There are worlds and circumstances into which people want to bring kids. We mostly failed to create that world and those circumstances. If tou want to know what a solution looks like look at western democracies with high birth rates. E.g. France, Ireland, New Zealand, Denmark. The rest is probably due to individualism. Kid…

Capitalism does not tell us we should live our best life. I think there are strong arguments that capitalism (particularly concentrated private investment in housing) causes low birth rates, but I don’t think capitalism itself causes some kind of consumption-fueled decadence causing us to prioritize fun over children.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#432

Post by mihalycsaba »

shepherdjerred wrote: post #357
pinkmuffinere wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I initially read this comment to mean “we wanted larger family, the secular world doesn’t do that, we became religious and we’re happy”. Am I understanding that correctly? If so, this strikes me as a very novel argument in favor of religion, and is more convincing to me than most others. I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with lar…

> I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it. There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody should have a problem with you wanting to be a part of a church community, even if you aren't a "real" believer.

People just want to be part of a community. Most of the time the only available open communities are church communities, so that's better than nothing.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#433

Post by mise_en_place »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #16

Anecdata: I am 31 and have 3 young kids. They have 0 cousins and, on top of that, 0... second cousins? Cousins-once-removed? Whatever the one is for my cousin's kids. My kids are my grandma's only great-grandkids. And I have... 6 cousins. On top of that, at my last job, on my team of 15, I was the only one with kids, and only 1 of those 15 engineers were under the age of 30. At my current job, my team is 8, and again…

First off, you shouldn't ever feel guilty about prioritizing your family over work. Please, never do that. I say that as a single 35 year old male. Secondly, I want you to understand that, though you may not realize it, you are in an extremely enviable position. To understand why people are not having children, you need to understand that in many places, it's not easy or convenient to have children.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#434

Post by foodgradient »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #112

Is it not totally obvious that the low birth rate is directly caused by availability and social acceptance of contraceptives and related technologies? People didn’t really “choose” to have that many kids in the past. It turns out that even if you don’t really want to have kids, not having sex is a very, very hard thing to do. Nature’s solution to making humans have kids despite being able to reason themselves out of…

I am not so sure. France experienced its decline in fertility about a century earlier than its neighbors (see figure 1 in [0] for instance). Did they have better contraceptives?

Traditionnal methods such as marrying late (see: European Marriage Pattern), pulling out, timing are very effective at _reducing_ the number of children you will have (note: not effective at reducing it to zero - don't do this at home kids!).

[0] https://www.guillaumeblanc.com/files/theme/Blanc_secularizat...

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#435

Post by [deleted] »

voidfunc wrote: post #199
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm baffled my peers , who absolutely could afford to, still have no interest. These are people making 150-200k (and at my prior job, 200-400k).

I just don't have any interest in kids. They're expensive and they require a ton of sacrifice. I'd rather travel, golf, do hobbies and generally enjoy my life. The only people that seem to want me to have babies are my parents so they can have grand kids... too which I've told them "Thank you for having me, but that's not a valid reason for me to sacrifice my life". I don't really care about the preservation of the h…

[deleted]

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#436

Post by TeMPOraL »

namdnay wrote: post #420
Defletter wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's wild that, not too long ago, you could afford a house and a car on a single income as a mailman. That is unthinkable today. We understand there are ways to be successful, but it's like that saying: anyone can be successful, but everyone can't. I know a lot of people who spend their money on experiences because they genuinely believe they won't get a retirement, so they might as well enjoy their life while they c…

> It's wild that, not too long ago, you could afford a house and a car on a single income as a mailman. That is unthinkable today. to be fair it was unthinkable the day before yesterday too. in the history of human civilisation, that kind of setup has only been possible in a handful of countries, for a few skin colours, for a couple of decades. fueled by burning cheap fossil fuels taken from poorer countries

In the history of human civilization, before that kind of setup most people didn't worry about having a house, because they lived in villages, so they lived next to their extended family, and either stayed together under one roof or eventually moved couple hundred meters to the side and built their own.

Expectations for quality of life were lower, sure, but the problem of not being able to find a place to live anywhere near your family or job, that is relatively new and getting worse.

> in a handful of countries, for a few skin colours, for a couple of decades. fueled by burning cheap fossil fuels taken from poorer countries

Also: I know it's trendy to make everything about skin colours these days, but that's a distinct USA-ian bias. The rest of the world doesn't work that way.

I won't argue against exploitation of poorer countries as that, indeed, was a big theme in the last century or two. However, note that whatever many hard problems people in those poorer countries have, affordable housing isn't one of them.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#437

Post by Detrytus »

bolduque wrote: post #254
nostrebored wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re benefiting from other people’s sacrifice. Your end of life care is entirely dependent on other people having and raising functional children. And these are all pretty weak reasons — people with kids do all of the things you’ve mentioned.

So what he should have kids who are going to take care of him when he's old? Sure, that's a great reason to have children.

Well, someone will have to take care of him. If it's not his children then probably some nurse in a nursing home. And guess what? That nurse is also someone's child. No children today equals labor shortage tomorrow.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#438

Post by lordnacho »

robocat wrote: post #279
jmopp wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. In poorer parts of the world, you might have an extra mouth to feed for the first 15-20 years, but once your child finishes school and finds work they're contributing to your well-being and to helping feed the younger children. You also need not worry too much about your retirement, because you know your family will support you, and you'll play a role raising your grandchildren and great grandchildren.

Kids as a retirement investment - makes sense in countries that lack safe investments (safe from over-taxation, theft, inflation). Built in interest/growth rate due to breeding next generation. Unfortunately I have shorted the children market by not breeding when younger. What's the appropriate way to invest in 2.5 children? I presume they are a very illiquid investment. The other problem with cousins is that brother…

Go and foster some kids. Maybe start with one.

Foster parent relationships are somewhere between zero and one of your own kids. They can be close or distant, depends on the relationship.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#439

Post by mihalycsaba »

xyzelement wrote: post #125
pfannkuchen wrote: post #112

Is it not totally obvious that the low birth rate is directly caused by availability and social acceptance of contraceptives and related technologies? People didn’t really “choose” to have that many kids in the past. It turns out that even if you don’t really want to have kids, not having sex is a very, very hard thing to do. Nature’s solution to making humans have kids despite being able to reason themselves out of…

I think this is a naive view. I didn't have a sense that my grandmother's generation (and all children prior to that) were perceived by their parents as unwelcome consequences of their unrestrained hornyness. Old literature starting with the bible is full of examples of people lamenting infertility, they clearly wanted kids. Also, today the only people who have children are the religious, which are also people that h…

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Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#440

Post by JR1427 »

dingi wrote: post #393
nostrebored wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re benefiting from other people’s sacrifice. Your end of life care is entirely dependent on other people having and raising functional children. And these are all pretty weak reasons — people with kids do all of the things you’ve mentioned.

This is one of the most selfish arguments you can make for having kids. You just want someone to take care of you when you are old. If we'll ever have capable robots, you people can stop having children.

Isn't it even more selfish to not have kids, and still expect someone else's kids to look after you when you're old?
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