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Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

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Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#431

Post by colindean »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #334
hysan wrote: post #264

Why did HR lead with it being performance based? It makes no sense given that this is very clearly part of a layoff. And especially so since they had no details. All they did was set themselves up for a very bad conversation with anyone who asked why. It comes off doubly worse because they kept repeating the same “we got nothing” reply because it removes all perceived empathy from the interaction. To be clear, I don’…

No severance or unemployment if its performance based.

This is not universally true. In at least Pennsylvania, "poor performance" as the reason does not disqualify from unemployment.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#432

Post by mhss »

mvac wrote: post #287

Don't you think it's also a problem of the corporate-kindergarten culture, where everyone and everything is considered great, even though, as a salesperson, they haven't closed any deals in the last four months?

We don't have any context to assess that. Depending on the complexity of the product and target customer sales cycle it can be perfectly normal to not close a deal in your first 4 months (one of which is December).

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#433

Post by david38 »

koito17 wrote: post #112
kqr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a US thing where the company doesn't want to give any reasons for firing someone because that can be used in a lawsuit against them?

I would say so. This video is a perfect demonstration of America's "at-will employment" culture. It's extremely asymmetrical, too. Companies can fire you at any moment, for any reason (with or without cause!)... yet it is considered rude for employees to not provide ample notice when deciding to voluntarily quit.

When a large company fires you, you usually get at least two weeks severance. This is better than notice. You get the notice and don’t even have to work.

When an employee quits, it’s expected they give two weeks notice.

This is rather balanced. Of course there’s the issue that you are 1/N * 100 percent of their workforce and they are 100% of your income.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#434

Post by etchalon »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #383
etchalon wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They gave a reason. That doesn't mean the facts supported that reason. The employee didn't believe they did. Not closing a deal in your first month of sales is not exactly unheard of or even uncommon. Either way, WT lawsuits don't generally "win or lose". They settle.

The facts support the reason ( 0 sales), although there are nuances ( timeframe - 4,5 months) There's also a lot of missing context. - what happened in those 3 opportunities that she tried to close a deal - perhaps she's missing a technical background to actually close a deal, since Cloudflare is a very technical product No one from us knows the details, so it's speculation. 4,5 months is still a bit fast though. Get…

You went from "the facts supported the reason" to "we don't have all the facts necessary to know if the facts supported the reason." to "from the facts we know, the reason seems sus."

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#435

Post by pinkgolem »

theshrike79 wrote: post #391
pinkgolem wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a dead month for sales. That depends, there are often left over budgets and people scrambling to spend them

But I'm not buying anything _new_ even if I have leftover budget, I can just buy more of the stuff I already have and use

Depends on the budget, we got several "innovation trial period" contracts for all of 2024 in December

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#436

Post by valval »

_nalply wrote: post #246
r3trohack3r wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's extremely asymmetrical, too. I’ve lived a very different culture than you in the U.S. - to the degree I’m surprised to see you express this sentiment. In days of yore, people gave notice. But then a meme policy of “don’t poison the well” did the rounds. Roughly, the philosophy went: when someone is leaving they can only do harm; they are leaving, they have a convincing reason for leaving, and you don’t want th…

That's horrible and very different from what I experienced in Switzerland. It's a concept in Swiss law that obligations are symmetrical, and the periods are quite long (three months, and not only for employment, but for other contracts as well, like renting). If you are dismissed on the spot, you'll get three months of pay. On the other hand, if you give or are given notice, you are sometimes expected to continue wor…

Which model do you think stimulates economic growth more? Which model could be said to give individuals more liberty?

Socialism and authoritarianism are treacherous ideas because they can seem so enticing in many contexts.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#437

Post by valval »

noirbot wrote: post #146
koito17 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say so. This video is a perfect demonstration of America's "at-will employment" culture. It's extremely asymmetrical, too. Companies can fire you at any moment, for any reason (with or without cause!)... yet it is considered rude for employees to not provide ample notice when deciding to voluntarily quit.

Everyone says this as if it's not also considered rude/bad behavior for a company to lay off people with no notice. It's rude either way. Both employer and employee can opt to do it without the usual graceful phase out, but they risk backlash from other employees. Either team members getting a bad impression of someone leaving suddenly, or getting a bad feeling about the company after unexpected layoffs.

Perhaps this is a subject where no good options exist, and chasing a win-win solution is unfruitful and unnecessary.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#438

Post by valval »

westpfelia wrote: post #427
epolanski wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practice being skeptical.

Right? I mean who is more likely to be shady and do crooked things? Some person or a business? Can anyone even name a single time when a company has fired someone without real cause and lied? /S

Companies are made of individuals, and individuals can be shady and crooked. In a vacuum, it’s probably somewhat as likely that the person getting fired and the company doing the firing are scumbags. I’d personally argue that companies have more of a reputation to uphold for profitability reasons, and will therefore be incentivised to act less scummy than individuals.

In this case, the company has nothing to gain no matter how they sever the contract. They’re simply getting rid of an employee who was either costing them money, or getting rid of many employees at a time to navigate a difficult economic situation.

The person making the TikTok on the other hand has a lot to gain from making a controversial and attention-grabbing spectacle out of this.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#439

Post by sanderjd »

cstrahan wrote: post #425
sanderjd wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think employers have pretty much always tried to avoid being required to pay severance and unemployment? If so, that seems to me like an unrealistically rosy view of the past.

I’m well aware that bad behavior is a thing. Some driver’s cut each other off in traffic, weaving in and out of lanes. Some customers condescend to service workers, knowing they can’t retaliate without losing their jobs. And some reprobate employers do shitty things like we’re seeing here. Are you really arguing against me when I say that this is exceptionally abhorrent? That’s all I’m saying: that this isn’t the kin…

Yes, I'm arguing against you when you say that it is "exceptional", though I agree that it is "abhorrent".

> There are plenty of companies lead by grade A people that treat their employees well instead of heartlessly throwing them under the bus.

I agree. But I also think companies aren't static things, founders can't stay forever, management always turns over eventually. I believe companies that are permanently incapable of looking for loopholes to reduce staff at the lowest cost to themselves are vanishingly rare.

I don't think relying on companies to not do things they are incentivized to do, on the strength of their principles, is an ineffective strategy. But maybe I'm arguing against myself here; if publicizing this kind of behavior results in bad PR that actually breaks through into being a problem for a company, then that changes the incentives, which I do think is good.

So yeah, even though I don't think this is new or unusual behavior, shaming it nonetheless could potentially have a positive effect.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#440

Post by Dylan16807 »

valval wrote: post #436
_nalply wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's horrible and very different from what I experienced in Switzerland. It's a concept in Swiss law that obligations are symmetrical, and the periods are quite long (three months, and not only for employment, but for other contracts as well, like renting). If you are dismissed on the spot, you'll get three months of pay. On the other hand, if you give or are given notice, you are sometimes expected to continue wor…

Which model do you think stimulates economic growth more? Which model could be said to give individuals more liberty? Socialism and authoritarianism are treacherous ideas because they can seem so enticing in many contexts.

I don't think a required severance period for long term employees would have a notable impact on economic growth. And making it easier to give notice is good for individual liberty and the ability to change jobs when desired.

And while we're looking at the intersection of socialism, employment, and freedom, moving health care away from employment and toward the government would be a big boost to individual liberty.

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