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Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

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Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dutch is similar with “U” being both singular and plural. Verb conjugation is the same for both cases. This has been interesting as an English speaker learning Dutch! Luckily I never really latched on to sms-speak but I can imagine some cohorts of English speakers have to break the habit of reading “u” as shorthand for the the full word.

Native Dutch speaker here. These days one doesn't capitalise the "u" except at the start of a sentence, however in older texts (40+ years?) it was usual to see the "U" pronoun capitalised at all times. Sorry if I'm mansplaining but I noticed you capitalising it and thought I'd point it out, because it would stand out to a modern Dutch reader. As for sms-speak, I'd be flabbergasted if you encountered the u-form anywhe…

Hey! I think you created an account just to reply to comment. That's cool!

Appreciate the spelling tip. I make a lot of mistakes writing in Dutch as it is. I would likely keep doing that by instinct until someone told me.

I am in the Netherlands for just over a year now. I live in a small village near the Belgian border and work in Eindhoven. I've actually found my neighbors and coworkers very accommodating towards my efforts to learn your language. I've taken 90 hours of lessons in about 9 months, which made me more confident to push people more and challenge myself. At my job, I try not to speak English for social situations, although all of our work is done in English due to remote workers in other countries.

Although I've had a good experience, I can see how some less assertive immigrants might not feel empowered to ask others honor their social requests. There have been times that I asked for something in Dutch, and without any hesitation, the attendant or store worker responded to my request in English. That stings a bit, but it stings for my ego because it doesn't usually happen. Many Dutch people in my daily life ask me to repeat myself, but they don't automatically make an assumption about my preferences and instead rely on the clues of the conversation to guide their responses. All of this is also dependent on the situation, eg. for work tasks, I speak English, because miscommunication is not an option.

If someone is reading this also as a new NL immigrant, I would say you should be assertive and ask a little on your path to find friends. It's okay to make friends in one language and transition to another if you both speak it. Shopping should be done in Dutch, read the Dutch newspaper, etc etc. Put in the effort and many Dutchmen will respect that. Habit might let their tongue slip, but kindly and firmly remind them, and they'll go back.

For Dutchies, I would say that that it's probably worth the effort to make a friend. If not, consider it the new normal for politeness. Just try to keep going in the same language until visible confusion or a blocking of progress in the conversation.

If you don't mind, I'd love if you reached out and sent me an email! I'd love to keep chatting about it. Address is in my profile.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#432
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also say good old small.. but the rest of the adjectives flow as I would expect to hear and say.

Yeah, but "good old" has an independent phrasal meaning, as in "good old Charlie Brown". That's fine if that's what you mean, or if you want to play with the ambiguity between the two interpretations - but if that's definitely not what you mean, then best use the standard phrasing.

I don't think it's independent at all. I think it assigns the quality of good oldness to things that are good but not old. Or it refers to things that are good and familiar.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#433
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, having learned Spanish as a non-native speaker, I was taught that the two forms had more to do with the closeness of the relationship than they did with some sort of social rank or superiority. For example, a family member who you would address as "sir" (at least in the Southern U.S.), maybe a parent or grandparent, might be taken aback if you addressed them with the formal "usted" in Spanish, because it didn't…

It is not that easy and depends a lot on context. I know people who use "usted" to their grandparents (who use "tu" in returns), but at the same time you have lots of shops where they will say "tu" to their customers (particularly clothing, not so much for restaurants). Depends a lot of the country/region and even family.

Thank you to those who responded! If you happen to see this, do you know if the behavior you describe is more common in Europe, rather than the Americas? (Just out of curiosity.) Most of the people I know who speak Spanish are from Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean (Puerto Rico or Cuba), and occasionally from South America. Rarely do I get to meet people from other areas, so I'm not sure if this is something I've failed to notice, or if it's maybe due to a regional difference.

Also, am I correct in my understanding that prayer is done nearly universally in "tu"? (I know some Argentinos who use "vos" for informal circumstances, but still use "tu" for prayer, but rarely anywhere else.) Could you help me to better understand the reasons behind this?

Thank you again for your response! It's a beautiful thing to have the opportunity to learn about other cultures from the people who live them.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>tu', is rarely used (only in the South) even in places and situations where 'tu' is used it's mostly still conjugated as if it were second person singular. 'EU BEM QUE TE AVISEI - TU EMPINOU ELE PEI'

You mean it's conjugated like the third person singular, i.e. like você or ele or "a coisa" (the thing).

[deleted]

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>tu', is rarely used (only in the South) even in places and situations where 'tu' is used it's mostly still conjugated as if it were second person singular. 'EU BEM QUE TE AVISEI - TU EMPINOU ELE PEI'

You mean it's conjugated like the third person singular, i.e. like você or ele or "a coisa" (the thing).

yes sure, my bad

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about the specifics for Iran in particular (the grandparent can answer), I've just heard about that from some friends hailing from there. But I could relate it, as it was a "chic" thing to do in my parts too back in the day (until around the 1970s), for upper class folks (using the polite forms of address, and so on). A good analogy in English terms might be the flirting with all the speaking formalities in…

FYI: Large parts of Afghanistan and Tajikistan also speak Persian. I was surprised to learn this recently.

fwiw, it's not so much that Persian is spoken in Tajikistan, it's that the Tajiks are a Persian people (as opposed to, in that part of the world, Turkic, Mongolic, or Hindi (Hindi and Urdu are the same languages, and Hindi and Persian are in the same broad language family, Indo-Iranian)

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does the average English speaker really not know about the term "phrasal verb"? :-) Yes. Furthermore, I didn't know the English word for it, despite being a native speaker, but do know the German "Verben mit Präpositional-Ergänzung", from having learnt German. Speakers of English as a foreign language will know more about English grammar than English native speakers.

Speaking only for my own experience growing up in the Western United States in the 80s and '90s, everyone was taught grammar from elementary school through senior year in high school, where the only required course was English. All of the pieces were taught. However, there is widespread ignorance among native English speakers about grammar. I don't think it's lack of education, but something else. My theory is that i…

I think the brain is designed to free up memory holding information that is not useful. Memory associated with a technical term like phrasal verb seems to be something it would garbage collect.

The brain will remember the term while it’s useful — to get a good grade on a test. After that, for most (almost all?) people it is useless to remember.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#438
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but "good old" has an independent phrasal meaning, as in "good old Charlie Brown". That's fine if that's what you mean, or if you want to play with the ambiguity between the two interpretations - but if that's definitely not what you mean, then best use the standard phrasing.

I don't think it's independent at all. I think it assigns the quality of good oldness to things that are good but not old. Or it refers to things that are good and familiar.

Yup. That's probably a better way to say exactly what I meant. "Good old" can mean something that's good but not old. "Old, good" means both old, and good. Thank you.

I suppose a comma might disambiguate, within a list of qualities, but I think my point stands.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, note my correction to the mistake in the above 'Afterthought'. Brain wasn't in gear. _ Thanks for the info. My German is far from perfect so I don't claim any authority on the matter. Most of my time in a German-speaking environment was in Austria (Wien) and that was now some years ago. Back when I was learning the language it was always stressed to me not to use du even with friends as it would be deemed as u…

> English-speakers are notoriously bad at learning second languages My experience of learning German is that Germans would prefer to speak with you in English, as they want to practise their language skills with a native speaker. English speakers aren't bad at learning new languages, rather there is little incentive to do so, given everyone speaks or wants to speak English. Trying to speak a foreign language is somet…

"My experience of learning German is that Germans would prefer to speak with you in English,..."

That's often true, and usually they're much more competent in English than the English-speaker is in the foreign language.

From my observations many European countries pay much more attention to teaching foreign languages at a young age when it's easier to learn them than does the anglophone world. Seems to me if one speaks English then there's much less imperative to do so.

I know I'm the 'victim' of this attitude, I should have been trained in at least one foreign language from kindergarten onwards but wasn't. Back then I'd have likely whinged about it but I'd have been damn grateful decades later.

I think there's a certain level of cultural arrogance amongst English-speakers in that they don't have to put in the effort of learning a language when English is essentially a lingua franca. Reverse the situation you posed above about Germans preferring to speak in English. How many people in anglophone countries would prefer to speak to a visitor in say German? I think the answer proves my point.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, note my correction to the mistake in the above 'Afterthought'. Brain wasn't in gear. _ Thanks for the info. My German is far from perfect so I don't claim any authority on the matter. Most of my time in a German-speaking environment was in Austria (Wien) and that was now some years ago. Back when I was learning the language it was always stressed to me not to use du even with friends as it would be deemed as u…

For the second person plural, variations like "youns", "yous" and "yis" are used frequently in the informal speech of rural Northern Ireland. Though you risk being jeered and taken less seriously if these were spoken in a formal or business setting - it would give you a distinct rural twang. You may or may not consider these better than "youse", though I will say "yous" before "y'all" (quaint American import) regardl…

Youse or whatever, the word doesn't matter in the broader context (and youse is regional anyway). Your comment just illustrates my point that people often want to make a distinction when using the second person you.
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