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Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

electrek.co

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Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Who is using 400-800V systems? That sounds extremely dangerous. Every electric vehicle. And yes, it is dangerous to work on the HV circuit.

Not all of them. The Kia Niro I’m driving as a rental this week has a 240v battery. Level 3 charging it feels wildly slow compared to my car. But yes, you’re right the increased voltages add a lot of risk that has to be managed.

And, thankfully, high-voltage systems are extremely well-managed in EVs.

Evidence in support of this claim is that EVs are statistically 4-5 times less likely to catch on fire compared to ICE vehicles.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2023/11/ev-fires-less-likely-th...

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah right, should've specified that. Of course an old one ;) A Td5. I call the other one "New Defender"

And a TD5 is already modern-ish enough, but very nice regardless! Personally, I would be at a loss working in anything built after the early 80s, so for a Defender that would be the dual-carb V8s, and 200/300 TDis. My 1982 Range Rover has all of three fuses, so electrically I'm fine! Except the mess previous owners did to the original wiring... No idea why it is so difficult to just make your own wiring for after mar…

Yeah I don't touch anything in the box beneath the passenger front seat ;) The previous owner thankfully already fixed the "oil creeps up the wires" issue, so I can leave it. Nothing I'm too keen on, but simple enough I figure.

> I have no idea why it works so...

I know that feeling haha. Adding wiring is so much easier than ripping up existing stuff ...

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#433

Many comments here seem to be confusing the accessories circuit voltage with the electrical vehicle motor and drive system. The vehicle motors have a combined power output of 450KW which requires a high voltage 800V system or the wiring would be so heavy it would not be feasible. This spec appears to be the accessories circuit with Tesla pushing for a new 48V standard. That’s super smart because it immediately means…

Musk did an interview with Sandy Munro about it. Worth watching.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#434
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it inherently noisier?

Faster slew rate for all switch supplies in the system. Nothing directly runs 48v.

Lights and motors can easily take 48V. It's only the digital devices that require switching supplies, and that's still much better that 200-300V rectified mains power.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#435
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get this a lot I work at an electronics store in Australia This week I had a customer dumbfounded why his 3,500W inverter almost caught fire He was using 8-gauge wire (~56A max) He needed 00-gauge (almost 300A max) If he’d have run the system at 48V instead of 12V he’d have saved $200+ per metre on cabling his inverter My advice on voltage selection for a vehicle is once you’re needing more than a few metres of 0-g…

Good look doing DIY work on the 48V network of a modern car, ICE or EV or 12, 24 or 48 V doesn't matter. And the past 12 V systems are dead easy to work on. On older cars that is, as soon as you have electronics and bus systems DIY basically requires deep car electronics knowledge and skills.

Dead easy is relative I guess, I once tried to track down an issue with the wiring loom of my 400cc motorbike and ended up giving up…

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#436
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you may have saved on wiring is going to be offset by the increased cost of the battery (I'm seeing 2x-3x cost) and the fact you now need a much beefier alternator which is going to have its own cost. You'd think if it were a slam dunk then the bean counters would have insisted on a transition to 48V years ago.

Total current consumption should be about the same (or even less, thanks to lower losses at 48v), so I'm not sure why would you would need a "much beefier" alternator. It will need different windings, but overall it should be about the same size and cost.

Once you've introduced a 48v system engineers will find ways to use that extra power. They've been spending decades carefully managing that power and making compromised. Now they won't have to. So yes, you're going to need a higher output alternator to keep the 48v battery charged due to the increased load.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#438
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12v exists because 6v was too low; wires were impractically thick for even the early accessories being added in the 1950s. The 6v-12v transition happened in 1955/56 for many cars. Some stuff like lightbulbs could be reused by putting two 6v bulbs in series in a 12v car, so it was a very cheap and relatively straightforward transition. If they'd just had some foresight and gone 48v in 1955, we would've saved 50 millio…

> If they'd just had some foresight and gone 48v in 1955 How would they have done this without cheaply-available high-speed switch-mode power supplies with low-DCR inductors/MOSFETs?

Why would they need those?

All the stuff that's natively 12 volts now could simply have been made natively 48 volts. You can make a 48-volt lightbulb as easily as a 12-volt lightbulb. You can make a 48-volt motor as easily as a 12-volt motor. Actually, motors for higher voltage tend to be smaller and lighter, which is why industry tends to go straight for 4160-VAC motors whenever 480VAC is inadequate.

What applications cannot be made to work at 48? I'm not aware of any. As I said in the comment to which you're replying, the telegraph and later the telephone network had been running similar DC systems since the 1850s or so at various voltages depending on the length of the telegraph line, with the telephone network taking over and 48 volts firmly entrenched by the 1910s. There was a huge manufacturing base producing 48-volt equipment, including motors and generators, indicator lamps, and a mindboggling array of switches, relays, stepping selectors, and their ilk, and all that was before WWI.

Furthermore, Charles Kettering who invented the automotive starter motor (and made it work at 6 volts), was around the same time making Delco-Light plants for rural electrification, which mostly ran at 32 volts DC. These supported a whole line of 32VDC appliances -- lights, vacuum cleaners, kitchen gadgets, irons, motors that could be attached to other machines in the shop. There was also a less common 110VDC version of the system but I can't find any contemporary literature discussing the differences, although I'm sure they would've quickly discovered that the 32V system was pretty docile while the 110V encouraged extreme care around open contacts.

As for why cars didn't use the higher voltages already in use and superior in many ways, my only guess is that a lead-acid battery with a high number of small cells must've been difficult or expensive to manufacture, compared to one with a small number of large cells. The Delco-Light plant used a large rack of 2-volt cells, whereas the starter motor used a single 3-cell packaged battery that fit easily under the hood. If they'd just figured out how to package more smaller cells together....

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#439
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get this a lot I work at an electronics store in Australia This week I had a customer dumbfounded why his 3,500W inverter almost caught fire He was using 8-gauge wire (~56A max) He needed 00-gauge (almost 300A max) If he’d have run the system at 48V instead of 12V he’d have saved $200+ per metre on cabling his inverter My advice on voltage selection for a vehicle is once you’re needing more than a few metres of 0-g…

Good look doing DIY work on the 48V network of a modern car, ICE or EV or 12, 24 or 48 V doesn't matter. And the past 12 V systems are dead easy to work on. On older cars that is, as soon as you have electronics and bus systems DIY basically requires deep car electronics knowledge and skills.

> as soon as you have electronics and bus systems DIY basically requires deep car electronics knowledge and skills.

So how is this done on cars? Dores each manufacturer have their own proprietary bus system (what i imagine), or is there a standard that everyone can use?

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#440
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

48V has been considered for automotive for decades. The problem was not know how. It simply has never been worth it before to retool things in practice. It's also electrically a lot more noisy. The limit of what is considered low volt is like 60v or something.

Mercedes-Benz has been using 48V systems since 2016. https://paultan.org/2016/10/31/mercedes-benz-reveals-first-d... This dynamic, where Tesla "announces" something that the rest of the industry has been doing for a while anyway, and a bunch of star-struck enthusiasts and stock manipulators tout it as an example of Tesla' "super smart innovation", is getting tiresome.

That is a link to a press release. As best as I can tell from other sources, they started shipping some high end, low volume models the next year that added a separate 48V curcuit in addition to the 12V. Color me impressed...
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