macOS Sonoma is available today • Hacker News Board

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#431

Post by inferiorhuman » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:36 AM UTC

koito17 wrote: post #350

mk12 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care what language Homebrew uses, it just works. When I got my M1 MacBook in 2021 I saw some of this negativity about Homebrew, and since I was doing a clean install anyway I decided to try out MacPorts. I quickly ran into problems and switched back to Homebrew and it's been smooth sailing.

What problems did you run into? I've been using MacPorts for years at this point since Homebrew can never seem to install libraries in a way that pkg-config, gcc, and ld can find them. (Yes, I'm aware there is a subcommand in brew to manually print the paths to libraries, this is still not ergonomic compared to MacPorts where I install a library and it more or less "just works" when I want to use it). Also, Homebrew…

It makes a mess out of iconv because it's not compatible with the OSX bundled version. Without digging into it further it seems like the macports iconv headers and libraries shouldn't be in the default search path.

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#432

Post by cztomsik » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:41 AM UTC

chatmasta wrote: post #250

I wish Apple would separate the updates of their bundleware from their OS. Some of the major updates have meaningful changes to the underlying OS (gatekeeper, SIP, etc.), but others - like this one - are primarily changes to frills like Messages, Notes, Safari and other Apple-native apps that I don't even use. I have no problem with Apple bundling these apps and making them work seamlessly together, and I don't even…

I have similar feelings. Apple did a wonderful job with M1/M2, but on the software side, I have mixed feelings. Xcode is a mess, and Swift UI is not a complete replacement for Cocoa.

And on the OS side, I feel like Apple is creating features that I instantly disable because they do the exact opposite of what I want.

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#433

Post by wwalexander » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:42 AM UTC

esafak wrote: post #222

joeman1000 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to move to MacPorts.

Don't move today, because the Sonoma release is not out yet. https://www.macports.org/install.php

You can just build the latest tarball from source with `./configure && make && make install` [1]. I did so just now without any issues. (You’ll need to install Xcode and the Developer Tools first if you don’t have them already.)

[1] https://www.macports.org/install.php#source

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#434

Post by bingemaker » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:43 AM UTC

cztomsik wrote: post #432

chatmasta wrote: post #250

I wish Apple would separate the updates of their bundleware from their OS. Some of the major updates have meaningful changes to the underlying OS (gatekeeper, SIP, etc.), but others - like this one - are primarily changes to frills like Messages, Notes, Safari and other Apple-native apps that I don't even use. I have no problem with Apple bundling these apps and making them work seamlessly together, and I don't even…

I have similar feelings. Apple did a wonderful job with M1/M2, but on the software side, I have mixed feelings. Xcode is a mess, and Swift UI is not a complete replacement for Cocoa. And on the OS side, I feel like Apple is creating features that I instantly disable because they do the exact opposite of what I want.

XCode is refusing to install. Fails with some error, and asks me to download XCode again. Also now the system needs 70-80 GB of free space to install XCode. One of the funny upgrades so far

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#435

Post by pchangr » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:43 AM UTC

vaughan wrote: post #290

chatmasta wrote: post #250

I wish Apple would separate the updates of their bundleware from their OS. Some of the major updates have meaningful changes to the underlying OS (gatekeeper, SIP, etc.), but others - like this one - are primarily changes to frills like Messages, Notes, Safari and other Apple-native apps that I don't even use. I have no problem with Apple bundling these apps and making them work seamlessly together, and I don't even…

Something cool however is you can actually build the open-source WebKit browser engine yourself and make closed-source Safari use your locally built version.

Do you have a link or something ? I couldn’t really find where you’d do that

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#436

Post by wwalexander » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:47 AM UTC

headwayoldest wrote: post #227

astrange wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again a good time to remember that there were multiple perfectly good package managers available when Homebrew was invented, they were more future-proof (by eg not putting files in /usr/local), and everyone only switched to it because for some reason Ruby programmers wanted all of their tools to be written in Ruby (and possibly by people with waxed mustaches.)

Ultimately users will go where the package maintainers are. There are more people out there willing and able to write Ruby today than Perl (Fink) or TCL (MacPorts). I'm sure someone will start a macOS package manager based on python and yum to signal the waning days of those technologies.

MacPorts has 36k active ports. Estimates I see online for the number of Homebrew formulae are less than 5k. TCL isn’t difficult to write and most Portfiles are just a bunch of whitespace-aligned key-value pairs.

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#437

Post by mukundesh » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:54 AM UTC

Safari finally has the Chrome feature that I miss the most, ability to create separate app like experience for a particular website.

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#438

Post by ace2358 » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 6:00 AM UTC

krackers wrote: post #202

cglong wrote: post #188

So it goes... Warning: You are using macOS 11. We (and Apple) do not provide support for this old version. It is expected behaviour that some formulae will fail to build in this old version. It is expected behaviour that Homebrew will be buggy and slow. Do not create any issues about this on Homebrew's GitHub repositories. Do not create any issues even if you think this message is unrelated. Any opened issues will be…

These warnings keep getting longer every homebrew release. You may want to try macPorts, which goes out of their way to explicitly support releases all the way down to 10.5.

As a part time nerd that’s falling behind on how to use ever changing tools, I started to fear homebrew. I just didn’t get how it worked.

Then I used macports. What a nice experience. Provided what I’m after is listen on there!

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#439

Post by johnsea » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 6:02 AM UTC

KennyBlanken wrote: post #410

travisjungroth wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the problems with OSS burnout is this many-to-one relationship with the users and maintainer. It’s sort of like the relationship between an outfielder and the bleacher crowd at a baseball game. Maintainers get requests to do things they have no interest in, like maintaining software for OSes past a certain date. That doesn’t sound so bad, but there are a lot, and they can even be mean. The maintainer can block…

It's not burnout. The homebrew team have been insufferable and egotistical for a long time. Max Howell (founder of homebrew) went to interview at Google, shoved a coding exercise back in their faces, made a snotty comment about how all the engineers at Google using Macs use his code and how dare they blah blah greatest engineer in the world blah blah, and walked out the door. That coding exercise was likely given to…

I am glad that there are people like Max Howell who write such (for me) great package managers. In opposite to what you write, here in a quote reply he comes across as very friendly: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin... PS: if really a lot of Googlers use brew I hope they also generously support the project (do. Apple)

Re: macOS Sonoma is available today

#440

Post by cpeterso » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 6:05 AM UTC

cglong wrote: post #188

So it goes... Warning: You are using macOS 11. We (and Apple) do not provide support for this old version. It is expected behaviour that some formulae will fail to build in this old version. It is expected behaviour that Homebrew will be buggy and slow. Do not create any issues about this on Homebrew's GitHub repositories. Do not create any issues even if you think this message is unrelated. Any opened issues will be…

I'm surprise Apple doesn't, even unofficially, upstream fixes to Homebrew before a new macOS version is released. Why let Homebrew break for so many macOS users on day 0? I know Apple is secretive about unreleased products, but the type of fixes for Homebrew wouldn't reveal too many Apple secrets. Do Apple engineers not use Homebrew on their own Macs while developing macOS?