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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#431

Post by pjmlp »

Thaxll wrote: post #246
arein3 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By enterprise I mean a lot of features related to data consistency, scalability and integrations. I do not know about go ecosystem, but java and spring have mature solutions that cover the most advanced use cases.

Kubernetes is what I would call very advanced use case. But that's the thing with Java, yes there are libraries for everything and one could see that as a problem actually. Spring was mentioned before, but it's the perfect example of an overengineered/ heavy library that does a lot of black magic.

Originally prototyped in Java, rewritten in Go when a couple of advocates joined the team.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#433

Post by realusername »

anoy8888 wrote: post #234
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

This is correct. It is about culture too. Java is the kind of language that attracts some mediocre programmers who produce mediocre code based on the wrong ideas of object oriented programming. of course, there are great Java programmers. It is just that a better programming language would help average programmers like us to achieve more

Yeah that's not going to be too popular but Java in particular has a tech culture problem. It's way more common to find overengineering and overabstractions in Java projects than any other language.

The language itself might be fine but I'll never touch it because of that.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#434

Post by zigzag312 »

devjab wrote: post #325
neonsunset wrote: post #224

Sad this gets to front page while a blog post which documents that .NET 8 has 200 A4 pages worth of performance improvements gets absolutely ignored. C# keeps being the language people are looking for but don't know about.

It’s because C# is only really nice on the surface. As soon as you actually do something with it that takes it beyond its cozy CRUD, it becomes such a nuisance to work with. We have an ODATA client that we build our selves to use in our React frontend. Now, this would obviously not have been something we also used on the backend if we knew what we know now, but it’s the perfect example to illustrate my decades of exp…

Your issue seems to be with packages provided by Microsoft, not C# language itself. Model builder magic is part of those packages, not C# language. These types of libraries often make simple things quick and easy, but complex things (or just simple customization) much harder or even impossible.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#435

Post by zelphirkalt »

mrkeen wrote: post #360
bedobi wrote: post #61

[flagged]

> the sane members of the Java community have long since moved on from Java, and they're not coming back We wish! We're stuck in the Java job market, reading Java praise pieces like this... Oh boy! Java's getting structs?

How long until we get continuations in Java? Maybe another 10y? How long until we get TCO? Lets say 20y?

And in the end it will still not feel clean or as neat as other languages, that had this stuff for multiple decades.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#436

Post by javcasas »

chii wrote: post #278
synergy20 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go's major selling point to me is that you can ship one binary, nothing beats that. Python, Node, Java all have to pre-install lots of dependencies before you can use them, fine for developers, not so great if you want to distribute software for people who are not software savvy, who typically just wants to download one file, install and start using it. c and c++ can also do one executable, but, it is not as portable…

> not so great if you want to distribute software for people who are not software savvy, who typically just wants to download one file, install and start using it. i think it's a flaw that wasn't considered properly in the standard java toolchain to not produce an embedded java runtime into a final packaged artifact that is self-executable. You end up with third party tooling like: https://www.ej-technologies.com/res…

That wasn't a flaw. It was a "feature". Can yo you think of a way to increase market awareness of Java other than putting an icon on every computer in the world saying "Your Java needs to be updated" every two weeks?

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#437

Post by Too »

neonsunset wrote: post #368
bad_user wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked with C# professionally. The async/await syntax works with the language's other statements, but for a long time it had gotchas. It doesn't qualify as "structured concurrency", and it has the aforementioned issues — it's (accidentally) error-prone, it splits the ecosystem in two, and has no interruption model. I am not familiar with Swift, but I think you can hardly beat Kotlin's implementation. This is a good…

What do you mean by "it splits the ecosystem in two"? I never observed such split, certain methods intentionally offer sync and async variants. Interruption is achieved through cancellation tokens and has to be handled by consuming methods. There is no way around it because interrupting execution at an arbitrary point would lead to all kinds of issues regardless of the language (unless it implements some form of tran…

https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-...

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#438

Post by javcasas »

hota_mazi wrote: post #248
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go gives you the illusion of simplicity because it gets rid of guard rails and error checking. If you remove all error checking, of course your code is going to look a lot simpler. It's also going to be a lot more wrong and crashy. Wait until your code base grows, your team grows to >10 developers, and you will understand what I mean. Java (and preferably Kotlin) are a lot more serious about making sure your code is…

> Java (and preferably Kotlin) are a lot more serious about making sure your code is robust before it compiles.

You are making great points for Rust, Ocaml and Haskell.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#439

Post by za3faran »

segfaltnh wrote: post #257
hota_mazi wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go gives you the illusion of simplicity because it gets rid of guard rails and error checking. If you remove all error checking, of course your code is going to look a lot simpler. It's also going to be a lot more wrong and crashy. Wait until your code base grows, your team grows to >10 developers, and you will understand what I mean. Java (and preferably Kotlin) are a lot more serious about making sure your code is…

Wait, are you implying Go doesn't have error checking? In what way? It has famously verbose error semantics.

It's verbose yes, but also more error prone.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#440

Post by za3faran »

anoy8888 wrote: post #234
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

This is correct. It is about culture too. Java is the kind of language that attracts some mediocre programmers who produce mediocre code based on the wrong ideas of object oriented programming. of course, there are great Java programmers. It is just that a better programming language would help average programmers like us to achieve more

Let's not forget who golang was made for:

"The key point here is our programmers are Googlers, they’re not researchers. They’re typically, fairly young, fresh out of school, probably learned Java, maybe learned C or C++, probably learned Python. They’re not capable of understanding a brilliant language but we want to use them to build good software. So, the language that we give them has to be easy for them to understand and easy to adopt. - Rob Pike

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