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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

431–440 of 1001 posts

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#431

Rubbish. Folks made the exact same arguments about alcohol and marijuana. Specifically with alcohol, anyone can walk into a treatment center without fear that they'll be arrested for the mere _use_ of a substance. (Marijuana has very low risk and rates of addiction, physical or psychological.) If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, so…

Let's take fentanyl for example. It kills so many people that there isn't any good reason for it to be a legal drug off prescription.

The difference between fentanyl and other drugs is a matter of degree.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#432
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

The Singapore (and rest of Southeast Asia) solution set might work here, but there's no way we have the political will for it. If we won't execute the vast majority of murderers, there's no way we'll do it for people just running a kilo of coke or weed.

Not to mention "works" and "worth it" are not quite the same thing.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#433
On an individual point of view, being easy on drug makes sense. We ought to have the right to do what we please to our bodies. But if you zoom out and look at the collective outcome, this is the sort of stuff that takes down millenium-old empires and keeps them down for centuries - China.

Being so bold to think that a good dose of superior modern intellectualism is going to make up for the fundamental flaws this introduce in a society, is a special type of belly button observationism.

As a society, we shouldn't stop our inquiry by looking at the personal tragedy that this causes on the individuals. The real long term issue is at the higher order level, where a society's fabric is torn apart by the debilitating nature of many drugs when deployed at scale on a society. Addictive debilitating drugs are a powerful force bringing a people down, taking others along with them.

Softness on drugs from a high minded perspective boils down to a decoupling mistake similar to the mispricing that carbon taxes attempt to correct. Drugs impose a high social cost that's hidden from sight when we just look at it from first-order individual right's perspective. But if we dig deeper, our collective individual rights are all put in jeopardy.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These people became not so much people but just a threat. This is part of the problem. They are a threat, but they're also still people.

Sure but I very much value my kids over strangers engaging in destructive behavior on the street. Why risk myself and my family for them?

Don't value them over your family.

Just don't think of them as less than human.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to strongly support people getting guns. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in the US has made me think differently. Most people who get guns eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll say the…

There is a difference between things that only affect me (or my body) and things that affect other people. Guns heavily skew towards the latter.

Funny how my closet full of guns is just randomly killing people who walk outside my apartment. I should get better lead shielding.

From a less snarky perspective, something absurd like 2/3rds of all gun deaths are suicide*. Which pretty definitively skews towards affecting one's own body over others.

EDIT: 54% in 2021, according to Pew Research [1]

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-...

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#436
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

> you should be able to do what you want. I'm still baffled at how this argument makes it anywhere paste high school. Living a single second makes it plain obvious that no, you don't do what you want. Living in any type of society or even the most basic and smallest community will tell you that

I've heard that this is a generational difference: xers thought of free speech as being an essential value and to hell with the sanctimonious totalitarians who are telling you that you can't listen to rap music.

This gave way to accepting any and all behavior, social contact be damned. So social stigmas themselves are repressive and it doesn't matter if you're hurting your heath, that's your choice as an individual. La vie boheme!

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limiting access to any kind of food AFAIK is extremely controversial! For starters there are the massive astro-turf campaigns that make a lot of noise. Beyond this, food regulation is catnip for the culture wars. > Taxes on sugar‐sweetened beverages reduce consumption, but a strong public backlash holds that they compromise consumers’ liberty, freedom, and autonomy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC691631…

> Limiting access to any kind of food AFAIK is extremely controversial! Where? Not in the US it’s not & it’s much more common to do so in the rest of the world too. Try buying proper raw milk cheese in the US for example.

> Where? Not in the US it’s not & it’s much more common to do so in the rest of the world too.

I can't find personally any examples in the US where regulations that limited access to certain foods was not met with an unholy backlash. Here are examples: - https://crosscut.com/equity/2022/08/study-finds-seattles-con... (the point there is that the ordinance was very controversial) - https://thefern.org/2022/12/how-food-became-a-weapon-in-amer... (this resource describes how/where food is controversial and has become part of the culture war; which means everything related to it is unnecessarily controversial)

Trying to find such examples, even lead in food is not regulated! [1] The FDA only has guidelines around lead and does sporadic testing. Fail those tests and the FDA only shames you, no jail, no required testing, no required compliance.

The example of the raw-milk-cheese is actually (according to this resourced) a poster-child of limiting access to certain foods as being contentious:

> There are many laws and regulations affecting the cheese and dairy industry in the United States. However, none is more contentious than the FDA-mandated pasteurization of all milk products for human consumption that was instituted in 1987. [2]

To be clear, food safety guidelines are very different from limiting access to food. This is a case though where access to certain foods was restricted and the cited resources states that as an example of the most contentious regulation.

I wondered as well what regulations have actually come from the FDA in the last 20 years and how were those received? It seems like the answer to that is the FDA has long been unpopular and structurely castrated to not be able to do anything regarding food [3]. Why that is the case, how it came to be - I could only speculate. My bets would be that it is easy to use the FDA as a punching bag, gutting it from the inside is certainly part and parcel to the 'small government' push that has been advocated of late [6]. It could also be part that the agency has fallen pray to corruption and is in the pocket of those it is there to regulate [4][7].

Looking at the list of 'milestones' from the FDA, published by the FDA itself, the list seems very underwhelming to me regarding anything food related going back 20 years, even 40 years (nutrition labels are one of the biggest items on that list; very underwhelming to me) [5]

Do you have examples where access to a given food was limited that was _not_ super contentious? I'm honestly not aware of any examples.

[1] https://www.fda.gov/food/environmental-contaminants-food/lea....

[2] https://www.foodandwine.com/lifestyle/why-americans-dont-get...

[3] https://www.politico.com/interactives/2022/fda-fails-regulat...

[4] https://time.com/4130043/lobbying-politics-dietary-guideline...

[5] https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/fda-history/milestones-us-food...

[6] https://www.news-journalonline.com/story/news/2012/04/05/bud...

[7] https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/05/fda-food-safe...

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#438
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

It's principles vs pragmatism. We have an example of one approach that works: Singapore. Mandatory execution of drug dealers, carried out three years after conviction, not three decades. That obliterates drug addiction as a societal ill.

On the other hand, the philosophical stance I agree with is that one human being does not have the right to dictate what another human being does with their own body, so long as they are an informed adult.

Our unwillingness to truly commit to our beliefs and values, whatever they are, gives us the worst of both approaches.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#439

Rubbish. Folks made the exact same arguments about alcohol and marijuana. Specifically with alcohol, anyone can walk into a treatment center without fear that they'll be arrested for the mere _use_ of a substance. (Marijuana has very low risk and rates of addiction, physical or psychological.) If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, so…

To be fair though, you don't really hear much about people selling their bodies (or other similar behavior, I.e. stealing from friends and family, etc) in order to obtain marijuana or alcohol.

This kind of behavior is primarily encountered when hard drugs are part of the equation.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did you do to help these people who were suffering? Did you just glare and step over them?

Yes. What would you like me to do? Walk up to each one I came across, my little kids in tow and try to have an intelligent conversation with them? Give them all my money? Invite them back with me to my hotel like the pied Piper of addicts? I want them out of the way and far away from my kids. I was pretty clear that I perceived them as a threat.

How are they a threat? They're lying in a pool of vomit, it's pretty clear they need help. Maybe teach your kids a bit of compassion?
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