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A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

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Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#431

Post by tracker1 »

hulitu wrote: post #427
ASalazarMX wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers are actually the problem, just as voters are the main cause of bad politicians. Most people will say they want one thing, but actually want another. They want robust appliances, but they will buy the 199.99 ones, which forces even the most honest manufacturer into a race to the bottom, unless they target the luxury segment. An airline which I can't recall, found the same: people say the want more leg room o…

> Consumers are actually the problem, just as voters are the main cause of bad politicians Voters do not know that politician X worked for company Y before getting into politics and do not know that politician X will work again for Y or for Z after his mandate is over. Consumers can only buy what is available. And quality is gone for good in military industrially capitalism. One can be happy if the product lives the…

Part of why it's important to be more involved at the local level... You may not know your senator, but you can definitely know your city/local govt, your local party reps, etc... and they will often know the candidates better than most.

There's a lot of effort in the grassroots of both major parties, and in third parties to displace the establishment. It takes effort and local involvement. Most simply aren't and don't care.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#432

Post by tracker1 »

layer8 wrote: post #347
karaterobot wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a relevant paper, not only because it's not about home appliances, but because it's about a situation where there is information asymmetry. I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not.

> I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not. Nope. The information made available is usually laughably sparse. And often you only learn about the model’s reliability when it isn’t in the market anymore. Models change faster than reliability can be assessed.

Not only that, but varying production runs of the same model will vary dramatically... The model in EU, produced in Germany vs the US model (same number) produced in Mexico will vary dramatically. This isn't a promotion or knock on either country, only in that some facilities will do better/worse than others, source different parts from different suppliers and have varying results.

Beyond this, is the brand white labelling and the same or differing parts for varying lines of appliances from different brands even.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#433

Post by mrguyorama »

drcongo wrote: post #43
vGPU wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See: Samsung fridges. A huge touchscreen and a water pump/ice maker that will fail in <5 years are standard.

My Samsung fridge is the worst thing I've ever bought.

Samsung appliances are really bad in terms of reliability it seems. Every single dishwasher they make is seemingly designed to have a certain "dirty water" sensor replaced every couple of years. My father has installed like 5 of these things, and they all fail in the exact same way in the exact same time frame.

But he doesn't care because he thinks they are really quiet (so what) and he often gets them cheap and "it's a cheap part and an easy fix" (for you it is)

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#434

Post by tracker1 »

adrr wrote: post #428
Night_Thastus wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I looked into it, I saw that the large, conical agitator had been replaced with a sort of agitator-plate that was much smaller. Part of that is it's also more efficient, iirc.

They are one of the most efficient washers in terms of water usage. i like them better than front loaders because of issues with the gasket like leaking and keep the gasket clean from mildew. Its just slower but with increased capacity. I can fit two queen sized comforters in mine with no issues. https://www.consumerreports.org/top-load-he-washer/things-to...

Not to mention, they both don't need to be as heavy, and are more mechanically stable than trying to balance a heavy water load effectively from the sides.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#435

Post by maccard »

sokoloff wrote: post #326
maccard wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years ago with fridges is a bit of a funny one because by then most had gotten rid of the nasty CFC's. But, even at that, it looks like today's fridges are _orders of magnitude_ more efficient to run than those from about 15-20 years ago. For an oven and hob, the basics haven't changed, but my previous flat had a $600 oven that was silent, leaked practically no heat, preheated in a couple of minutes and came with…

> it looks like today's fridges are _orders of magnitude_ more efficient to run than those from about 15-20 years ago 15-20 year old fridges are about 35% less energy efficient than the best modern fridges, not 100x. We just haven't made that much progress in refrigerants, compressors, nor insulation. It looks like very efficient fridges today use about 400kWh per year. Those are the best (not the average). In the la…

> 15-20 year old fridges are about 35% less energy efficient than the best modern fridges, not 100x

I apologise that you took orders of magnitude literally. I'll settle for an entire order of magnitude really. I think it's _way_ more than 35%, though.

> It looks like very efficient fridges today use about 400kWh per year. Those are the best (not the average).

Where did you get that number from? Here's [0] a $220 fridge that advertises at 90 kWh. I found another that claims 61 kWh, but it's $1800 so I left it. 20 years ago is a very specific timeframe, if you go back 25 years you're also likely talking about removing a bunch of horriffic CFC's which were widespread at the time. I'm finding it hard to find numbers for that time frame though, the only ones I can find are early 90's claims of 1700+kWh/year.

But yes, I concede, we have not had a 100x improvement in energy efficiency in 20 years. The entire rest of my post stands, and I think we've seen a 10x improvement in efficiency. At today's electricity price in the UK, the savings from a 550 kWh fridge to the one I linked above would pay for the fridge in a little over a year. Said fridge is under guarantee for 2 years in the EU/UK, so it's a _guaranteed_ cost saving over that time period.

[0] https://ao.com/product/rl170d4bwe-hisense-fridge-white-80358...

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#436

Post by tracker1 »

ekanes wrote: post #397
Night_Thastus wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get a little tired of repeating this, but there are some good reasons why fridges (and most appliances) are the way they are now: * Strong regulation on energy use by appliances (modern fridges are much, much more efficient than ones from 70 years ago) * Extreme competition from companies all over the world * Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all The…

Similar to why the flying experience can be so awful - consumers by airline tickets based largely on price. The airlines that lower costs (and experience) best win.

Not for everyone... I'll go with a different airline for a generally better experience. Ex: Delta over United.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#437

Post by ProfessorLayton »

JeremyNT wrote: post #389
karaterobot wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other problem is really with consumers. Nobody ever wants to admit that they make bad choices, but this is the most important explanation for why a lot of stuff sucks. If people were willing to pay more for a reliable refrigerator, that's what would get made. In empirical fact, their actual priority is cheapness, so that's what they get.

Except that there's basically no way to know which products are going to be more reliable! You can use price as some kind of signal, but it's only loosely correlated. Manufacturers use a dizzying array of different model numbers that change constantly, so it's impossible to buy a model that's been in the field long enough to have a meaningful track record. You can probably figure out that some brands are basically al…

I'd argue that's still part of the consumer's responsibility to vote with their wallet, since part of what makes a brand a brand is its reputation.

This has long been the case for cars, where Japanese brands focused on reliability and were able to outcompete less reliable brands when new, and command higher prices in the used car market. Many Japanese brands are now no more reliable than their domestic counterparts, but that doesn't mean they're unreliable, and consumers are still voting with their wallets based on their past experience.

Bringing this back to home appliances, when my parents purchased their home, it came with a fancy-looking Samsung fridge, which broke shortly after the warranty period. That meant that when it came time to purchase my own fridge, I wrote off Samsung completely. Additionally, my parents purchased a nice LG washing machine, which has been running great for well over a decade now, and again when it came time to purchase my own, I went with LG. None of these were the cheapest, and I as a consumer voted with my wallet.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#438

Post by bluGill »

dragontamer wrote: post #395
bluGill wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While old appliances have good features, LG and Samsung have earned a reputation of being bad. Whirlpool and GE still make some good stuff and they still sell parts. The reason you keep the old washer is the new versions legally cannot use as much water, and so they don't clean as well.

Oh you can buy the old wasteful washers if you still want them. They just don't got any EnergyStar ratings (in fact, people have been shopping around for "lack of EnergyStar" to find those old wasteful washers). But "they don't clean as well" is a bit of a myth. More water requires more soap, and as it turns out, shuffling clothes around with *proportionally more soap* and *less water* leads to better cleanliness for…

Water is called the "universal solvent" for a reason. We use soap for the exceptions, but water still does the bulk of the removal of things you don't want (dirt, salt), while soap handles the rest (generally oil based stains)

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#439

Post by vel0city »

techdmn wrote: post #80

Certainly not the first to mention this, but see also: microwaves. I worked at a restaurant that had a microwave with precisely one input: a timer dial. To start the microwave, you turned the dial to the desired time. To stop the microwave, you open the door (ok, that's two inputs). To add time, you turned the dial further. It didn't beep a million times either.

I prefer my microwave. I often just press the "Reheat" button once and its practically always perfectly cooked. It'll even suggest turning or stirring if it thinks it needs it, which is usually only for large things.

I don't even have to think about how far to turn the dial.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#440

Post by tzs »

philipkglass wrote: post #172
techdmn wrote: post #80

Certainly not the first to mention this, but see also: microwaves. I worked at a restaurant that had a microwave with precisely one input: a timer dial. To start the microwave, you turned the dial to the desired time. To stop the microwave, you open the door (ok, that's two inputs). To add time, you turned the dial further. It didn't beep a million times either.

I had a microwave from the 1990s that had one power level dial and one timer dial. That interface was the best I've ever used. It took two seconds to start the heating process after I knew what power and time I wanted. If I could get a modern inverter based microwave oven with a two-dial interface I would love it. I just want the basic power and time controls to be fast and tactile. I'll happily give up sensor based…

My beef with power level settings on microwaves is that they usually don't tell you what they mean. Say I want to microwave something in my 1250 watt inverter microwave but the instructions are based on an 800 watt oven. What power setting in closest to 800 watts?

All the manual tells me is there are 10 power settings, 10 is full power, and 3 is best for defrosting. It would be nice if it said something like "When following instructions written for an 800, 1000, 1100, or 1200 watt over use power level 7, 8, 9, or 10 respectively".

I did some measurements of heating water on my Panasonic inverter microwave, and based on that it looks like the power levels 1-10 are roughly 140, 230, 300, 380, 620, 720, 800, 960, 1140, and 1250 watts.

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