Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Internet disrupted in Pakistan amid arrest of former PM Imran Khan

netblocks.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

431–437 of 437 posts

Re: Internet disrupted in Pakistan amid arrest of former PM Imran Khan

#431

Post by ta1243 »

George83728 wrote: post #426
ta1243 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Revoking someone’s citizenship is hugely controversial. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights enshrines having a nationality as a right, forbidding countries to arbitrarily deprive someone of it. It seems to me that if I were an EU citizen, the EU would be the ones who had to remove my citizenship, and that would be a very controversial step. I don't recall long winded speeches in the UN denouncing the EU for f…

The UDHR, Article 15, says that everybody has a right to have nationality and can't arbitrarily be deprived of nationality . The EU is not a nation and nobody has an "EU nationality", so depriving somebody of their EU citizenship doesn't violate Article 15. People in the UK retained their nationalities.

"German citizen" == "Germany nationality"

"Nigeria citizen" == "Nigerian nationality"

"EU citizen" != "EU nationality"

Re: Internet disrupted in Pakistan amid arrest of former PM Imran Khan

#432

Post by matthewdgreen »

int_19h wrote: post #399
matthewdgreen wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage is effectively free. I can fit the entire Vicuna LLM on a $5 (US retail) SD card right now, and in a decade that’ll be less than $.50. LLMs will also presumably get more efficient at storing fact data outside of the network parameters. People can download Wikipedia pages but weirdly they don’t . They prefer the interactive web to big downloads of static encyclopedia data, even though the latter is better and…

People in regions where Internet access is a problem to begin with do not download Wikipedia because they don't have the ability to do so. That's why Kiwix has side projects such as a Raspberry Pi based content server that can be set up in e.g. a school and used to serve content to all students using whatever cheap phones they might have, or a reader that runs on WinXP. And, yes, that stuff is actually deployed in va…

The situation I’m considering is not people who are sitting in regions where Internet connectivity is fundamentally poor, because there is no infrastructure. The situation I’m considering is one where Internet connectivity exists but is being deliberately throttled or filtered: either through periodic Internet shutdowns (as is happening in Pakistan right now as described in TFA) or through ubiquitous content and site filtering (as happens routinely in China and increasingly in other nations.)

There are places where Internet access and compute resources are fundamentally limited by lack of infrastructure. Talking about LLMs in those places doesn’t make sense. But on the trajectory we’re currently on, those places will likely become more rare while political Internet filtering will become more common.

Re: Internet disrupted in Pakistan amid arrest of former PM Imran Khan

#433

Post by nojonestownpls »

lannisterstark wrote: post #428
nojonestownpls wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love when authoritarian nations just block internet. Much better to just have control over the popular platforms, have a revolving door between them and the government intelligence agencies, and do your communication control that way.

The problem with that argument is that I can still get access to content via subverting said controls. I have access to the underlying infrastructure. I can't when the entire internet infrastructure is shut down. I'm always amused when people go to lengths to defend authoritarian regimes. Pretty sure I am allowed to criticize the country I'm a citizen of.

Explicit control is in many ways better than this kind of subtle behind-the-scenes manipulation. It's more visible, easier to gather resistance against (yes, even under the control), and relatively easier to dismantle. To "subvert the controls" people first have to know they exist, and then go through the friction of subverting them, which very few people bother to do in practice.

You can of course criticize whatever you want, have double standards, and call things "authoritarian regimes" with no idea what those actually look like. Doesn't make them so.

Re: Internet disrupted in Pakistan amid arrest of former PM Imran Khan

#434

Post by George83728 »

ta1243 wrote: post #431
George83728 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UDHR, Article 15, says that everybody has a right to have nationality and can't arbitrarily be deprived of nationality . The EU is not a nation and nobody has an "EU nationality", so depriving somebody of their EU citizenship doesn't violate Article 15. People in the UK retained their nationalities.

"German citizen" == "Germany nationality" "Nigeria citizen" == "Nigerian nationality" "EU citizen" != "EU nationality"

Sounds like you figured it out. Germany and Nigeria are nations, the EU is not. Appropriately, Germany and Nigeria are represented in the United Nations, while the EU is not.

Re: Internet disrupted in Pakistan amid arrest of former PM Imran Khan

#435

Post by lynx23 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #395
lynx23 wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this compassionate reply. Its about time that we start understanding eachother even if we are in disagreement. It is subtle, but it really makes a difference. Let me just reply to your last point: In fact, I am psat that, because this was exactly what happened to me. We had a coalition between center-right and the green party. Even the socialists turned up and everyone seemed to unite into a coalition to d…

"but the lesson I got, sadly, was that you really can not trust anyone to not corrupt and try to control you. " Even if this would be absolutely true, it would not undermine democracy. It just would proof the need to have build in mechanisms to keep the people in power in check. Exactly because you cannot trust people 100%. And mechanisms like this exist and are in place, but I agree, they should be improved.

This is what I believed as well, until I saw how one of the basic democratic rights, the right to demonstrate, was undermined in my country from the first day on. The main argument wasn't even spreading the virus, while that was aso mentioned as an aside. The main argument was "all of the demonstrators are right-wing nuts, these demonstrations must be condemned". I was schocked, because I knew this wasn't true at all. This is when I reaized, all the safety mechanisms we have been taught about democracy are a shim which can easily be disabled at the time of "need" from a autocratic regime.

Re: Internet disrupted in Pakistan amid arrest of former PM Imran Khan

#436

Post by phtrivier »

lynx23 wrote: post #435
hutzlibu wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but the lesson I got, sadly, was that you really can not trust anyone to not corrupt and try to control you. " Even if this would be absolutely true, it would not undermine democracy. It just would proof the need to have build in mechanisms to keep the people in power in check. Exactly because you cannot trust people 100%. And mechanisms like this exist and are in place, but I agree, they should be improved.

This is what I believed as well, until I saw how one of the basic democratic rights, the right to demonstrate, was undermined in my country from the first day on. The main argument wasn't even spreading the virus, while that was aso mentioned as an aside. The main argument was "all of the demonstrators are right-wing nuts, these demonstrations must be condemned". I was schocked, because I knew this wasn't true at all…

I'm sorry that you felt silenced during demonstration. I hope you got other chances to get your voice heared afterwards (and if your voice was heard but just happened to be in a minority... Not much more to say than 'this too, shall pass'.)

As an aside, to be honest, I've always been undecided about demonstrations.

I dread for the day were they will be systematically forbidden or brutally repressed. And then again, I live in a country that is in a perpetual state of strike and demonstrations, but we're it's cool and fashionable not to vote, because, "it doesn't change anything".

I love the creativity that comes in cardboard slogans. (I want to meet the person who invented "16-64 : it's a beer, to a career" during this pension reform season.) And yet, I always feel uncomfortable about being in the same crowd as other, much less original and much more simplistic slogans.(sorry, but I _saw_ the posters explaining that every single person wearing a mask or getting a jab was a fascist decrebrated sheep. Or that COVID was just a trick from the . I would not have like walking behind this, sorry.)

Also, at how many people does a demonstration starts to represent "the will of the people" ? It seems like any cause can summon 500.000 people in the streets in May, provided the weather is good. 1 million people is almost a "revolution".

And yet, 1.000.000 people gets you less than 5% of any election with a decent turnout. Should that matter ?

Also, to be clear : I'm frailed or not particularly brave. The idea that "just because you're a big mob, and you can threaten to break stuff, you're right" is frightening.

I supposed I would be even more frightened in an "actual" dictatorship. So, plenty of cognitive dissonance to deal with, hey ?

Maybe I'm just enjoying the privileged position of a country where we get elections that are not entirely tricked (source : my perversion is tallying votes on Sunday nights. Cool kids don't do that, but they don't vote either - They get ready for the next demonstration.)

I hope that, if we ever loose that, I'll get the courage to demonstrate.

Re: Internet disrupted in Pakistan amid arrest of former PM Imran Khan

#437

Post by lannisterstark »

nojonestownpls wrote: post #433
lannisterstark wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that argument is that I can still get access to content via subverting said controls. I have access to the underlying infrastructure. I can't when the entire internet infrastructure is shut down. I'm always amused when people go to lengths to defend authoritarian regimes. Pretty sure I am allowed to criticize the country I'm a citizen of.

Explicit control is in many ways better than this kind of subtle behind-the-scenes manipulation. It's more visible, easier to gather resistance against (yes, even under the control), and relatively easier to dismantle. To "subvert the controls" people first have to know they exist, and then go through the friction of subverting them, which very few people bother to do in practice. You can of course criticize whatever…

> call things "authoritarian regimes" with no idea what those actually look like. Doesn't make them so.

I'm Indian. My mother's Egyptian. I'm pretty certain I know what an authoritarian regime looks like. I've seen how the Indian govt has treated Kashmir. I've also seen how authoritarian Egyptian govts in the past have treated their own people.

But sure man, lick more boots. Just remember, the 5 Rupees Modi govt is paying you for this comment won't earn you any goodwill from your fellow man you rat out on.

Post reply on HN