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Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

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Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#431

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

taeric wrote: post #274
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Greek. When teaching a kid to read English using phonics, how do you explain that "tough" and "rough" are written the same, but sound different than "though" and "borough", and that "doe" and "low" rhyme with each other and both the latter, but neither of the former? And how do you explain "Loughborough"? Why not "Lowborrow", as in "low" and "borrow"? Don't kids ask those things when you teach them to read with p…

This really isn't that difficult, all told. Just consider the rules of any sport, and see how conditional so many of those are. Yet they will pick them up just fine. Yes, they will get it wrong a lot, too. But that is fine so long as you aren't ridiculing them for being wrong. Acknowledge the difference and move on. For the specific examples you are using, the general idea is that we have a set of phonetics that can…

>> Just consider the rules of any sport, and see how conditional so many of those are.

Yeah, don't get me started on cricket :P

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#432

Post by johncalvinyoung »

ljf wrote: post #3
lr4444lr wrote: post #2

As someone who's both worked as a teacher and as a software engineer, my feeling is that what happened in reading education is roughly what engineers' jobs would be forced by their CTOs to use software methodologies and languages that came from their university professors who've never really spend much time (at least not in well over a decade if at all) doing actual salaried software development where code had to be…

It is a really interesting problem - my son and my daughter were both taught using phonics - my son had very little interest in reading and spelling (very much like me at his age) but reads at about the level he should (I personally think if he is anything like me, he is doing really well). My daughter took to reading and spelling like a natural - the same processes just worked for her, and engaged with the way she t…

Random aside:

> I just hate writing with a pen - total blocker for me to get words on paper

I don't know your details, and your experience could stem from something like dysgraphia. But I personally did not have any such difficulties and still strongly preferred keyboards to ballpoint pens, until I discovered fountain pens. Within a few weeks of practicing taking notes with a fountain pen I found my handwriting improving dramatically, with much less wrist/hand strain--rediscovered a love of handwriting. (Writing with a fountain pen _requires_ less pen pressure on the paper, and writing with liquid ink moves much more fluidly and expressively than most ballpoint pens.) Might be worth a try at some point. I still type all day for my job, but don't flinch at the idea of taking pages of notes at a conference or church service, and I enjoy writing handwritten letters once again.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#433

Post by wl »

rcoveson wrote: post #284
phoe-krk wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is the case, how would you describe the act of comparing English to languages which actually have consistent letter-phoneme pronunciation throughout the language (starting with e.g. the same number of available letters and phonemes and a 1:1 mapping between them)?

Spanish is "strictly phonetic" English is "[very] loosely phonetic" Hieroglyphic systems are "non-phonetic"

Egyptian hieroglyphs are, for the most part, phonetic.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#434

Post by martindbp »

barrkel wrote: post #68
jrochkind1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I did not learn to read at home, I learned to read in school, in the early 80s, starting with basic alphabet in kindergarden (not before), and serious reading in first grade, which was standard then -- and by third grade was a huge nerd spending many hours a week reading recreationally, and reading "adult" novels like George Orwell. Your story is a good reminder that there may be more than one way…

Starting X early is IMO a bit of a red herring with child development, especially when they're in the low single digits. Their minds grow in power recognizably on a weekly basis (particularly noticeable when you spend a week apart) that an amazing uphill achievement at time t can be a trivially picked up thing at time t+1. I think you're right on the culture thing. My kid loves new books and understands that they con…

Exactly. I try things with my son and observe if he's ready or not. There's no rush, nobody will care at 30 if you were a year "late" learning X. For example, I'm very skeptical of the trend of trying to teach advanced/abstract math to kids earlier and earlier. If they're that one in 100 and they are interested, sure. But in your late teens you just have so much more brain power, you'll easily catch up. I remember being intimidated in CS undergrad by the ubernerds, who had been coding since they were 6. But within a few months we were all at the same level anyway.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#435

Post by lazyasciiart »

rcoveson wrote: post #284
phoe-krk wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is the case, how would you describe the act of comparing English to languages which actually have consistent letter-phoneme pronunciation throughout the language (starting with e.g. the same number of available letters and phonemes and a 1:1 mapping between them)?

Spanish is "strictly phonetic" English is "[very] loosely phonetic" Hieroglyphic systems are "non-phonetic"

Funnily enough, Egyptian hieroglyphs were in fact phonetic: they just used recognizable pictures instead of abstract symbols to represent the sounds. It's possible they were sometimes used as ideograms too, but not the standard.

Chinese ideograms are not phonetic, because seeing the written character gives you no indication of what the sound of the spoken word is.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#436

Post by wl »

josefx wrote: post #400
rcoveson wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spanish is "strictly phonetic" English is "[very] loosely phonetic" Hieroglyphic systems are "non-phonetic"

> Hieroglyphic systems are "non-phonetic" Wasn't there at least one that just encoded letters almost identical to the alphabet we use?

The Latin alphabet is ultimately derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#437

Post by curiousbean »

vuln wrote: post #420
siftrics wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could anyone take the advice "don't teach your kids" seriously? Are you insane? It makes no sense on any level. How does NOT teaching your kid to read help them? It's as if people don't have brains anymore.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#438

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

pitaj wrote: post #417
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> kids best learn to read via phonics. parent comment didn't say "learn best", it said "learn first".

Even in phonics, kids learn common words like "the" by sight. But that doesn't scale. People don't learn to recognize every word as an individual token.

> But that doesn't scale.

You're saying that they move on from it. That doesn't contradict the "learn first" part, does it?

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#439

Post by watwut »

troupe wrote: post #179
analog31 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of my parents learned to read at home, in poverty. Both had educated parents, who had been displaced by the events of the era. I learned to read at home. Both of my kids, likewise. It didn't even remotely occur to anybody in the family that learning to read was special, or that there might even be any way to teach it other than phonics. English has a phonetic alphabet after all, right? Moreover, learning to read…

> Lucky? Yes, but we also felt that letting our kids learn to read at school was leaving too much to chance. Luck is when preparation meets opportunity. Your preparation gave your kids an opportunity they wouldn't have had otherwise. There is quite a push to make parents feel that they are unable to teach their kids and that it needs to be left to "professionals." When COVID sent kids home and gave parents a view int…

Dunno, I discovered that school teaches them more then I thought and learned to value teachers more.

Both my kids learned to read in school classes and read a lot.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#440

Post by camgunz »

warner25 wrote: post #406
gnicholas wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We use the same book with our kids, and had a similar experience with educators. When she moved a to new school in first grade, they were extremely skeptical that she has able to read chapter books. But I don't think it was specific to reading — they pulled the same crap when it came to other subjects. My sense is they don't want to admit when a student comes in with lots of skills because then they can't take credit…

I suspect that many teachers also (1) don't want to feel like parents can just casually do their job pretty well, like their years of education and certification aren't necessary, and / or (2) deal with an above-average number of parents who think their kids are above-average, so develop some skepticism over time. We just sent our kids to school knowing how to read without telling anyone and let their teachers tell u…

Teaching is pretty hard. It's a lot easier if you have only 1 kid, you control their home life also, they have a similar culture and background as you do, you can give them your (relatively) undivided attention all day, and you don't need to get them to pass a standardized test. Elementary school teachers have > 30 kids, new batch every year, from all walks of life, they can't control their home life, and they have to teach to a test.
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