Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#431

Post by foverzar » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:14 PM UTC

Stagnant wrote: post #350

foverzar wrote: post #229

So, this is mostly a US-centric forum, but I wonder what is the take on this from the perspective of a Finnish person. Is there any controversy or concerns of becoming a foothold for future conflicts? This whole thing has been dragging on for sometime now, had the opinions shifted over time?

The decision to join NATO has had overwhelming support among the general population throughout the process. Over 80% of the population were in favor of joining when we applied for membership last year and the opinions have stayed around the same. According to a poll conducted in early february this year, 82% were in favor, 10% undecided and 8% against. Parliament votes were 184-7 last month when they approved the mem…

> Russia already saw Finland as part of "the west"

> Why try to stay "neutral" with no formal defense pact, when Russia viewed us as hostile anyway?

Good point, thanks for that perspective. Was there hypothetically any way Russia could signal if it was not the case though?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#432

Post by The_Colonel » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:25 PM UTC

foverzar wrote: post #333

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born when the Soviet Union fell. All my childhood I watched media like James Bond and played games like Command & Conquer about Russian invasion, saw my extended family suffer the generational trauma of war, and being male, am forced by threat of imprisonment to personally accept social responsibility for sacrificing my life defending our country from Russian invasion, I'm pretty fucking relieved the nightmare…

> I'm pretty fucking relieved the nightmare is over. Ouch. Genuinely hate to be the bearer of bad news, but everything I know about politics (especially from Russian perspective) tells me that this is only the beginning and uncorking of a potential conflict. I assume, you do not expect that NATO membership would put Finland into a direct hot confrontation with Russia, thus turning into a kind of a self-fulfilling pro…

> I assume, you do not expect that NATO membership would put Finland into a direct hot confrontation with Russia, thus turning into a kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Neutrality is no protection against aggression. Vienna was famously one of the first targets for Soviet nuclear strike.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#433

Post by tim333 » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:28 PM UTC

foverzar wrote: post #301

GalenErso wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the idea that it was a mistake for NATO to allow former Soviet bloc countries to join, because it would supposedly encroach on Russia's sphere of influence or increase tensions with Russia. Spheres of influence are gained through economic muscle and cultural power now, not force of arms.

> I don't buy the idea that it was a mistake for NATO to allow former Soviet bloc countries to join, because it would supposedly encroach on Russia's sphere of influence or increase tensions with Russia It was a mistake for NATO to do it without Russia. It's not a matter of "influence", but a matter of military risks and perceived threats. If there was a political will towards pushing Russia to NATO any similar to wh…

NATO was formed basically as a club for democratic states to defend themselves from aggressive dictatorships, in practice mostly Russia. Unless Russia adopts democracy and human rights it's a bit impractical for it to work with or join NATO.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#434

Post by The_Colonel » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

khuey wrote: post #92

anonymousab wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turning it into a barren wasteland makes it easier to take or hold with disposable conscripts.

It really doesn't. The front in eastern Ukraine has been shelled into oblivion at this point and it hasn't made it easy for Russia to advance.

That's because Russia is also short on shells. The bulk of their advance in April-July was facilitated by their mass artillery fire.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#435

Post by tim333 » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

foverzar wrote: post #428

koonsolo wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dictators don't like united democracies. Strange.

Totally strange given that love to democracies have nothing to do with anything. Srsly, how do the "United democracies" expect to be taken seriously when their whole attitude to literally everything is "bad guys don't like us for being good boys"?

NATO seems to get taken quite seriously by its opponents for some strange reason.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#436

Post by The_Colonel » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:35 PM UTC

Slartie wrote: post #359

Auracle wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*Without using their nukes

Nuking the country right next to your country sure seems like a great idea. Cause everyone knows that radiation stops at the border!

Today's nukes can be very "clean". Even the old Hiroshima/Nagasaki did not cause that terrible residual radioactivity (neither city stopped being continuously inhabited).

Chernobyl released ~400 times as much radioactive material into the environment as the Hiroshima bomb. The nuke isotopes are also much shorter lived than what Chernobyl released.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#437

Post by torbica » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:40 PM UTC

ta1243 wrote: post #389

torbica wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO.

Only time I've seen Nato bombing was with UNSC approval to combat genocide. In I'm fairly sure the bombing in Serbia was supported by at least some of the ethnic Albanians being attacked by the government, which would nullify the claim "Nobody in my country wanted to be bombed by NATO"

"NATO did not have the backing of the United Nations Security Council to use force in Yugoslavia. Further, NATO did not claim that an armed attack occurred against another state. However, its advocates contend that NATO actions were consistent with the United Nations Charter because the UN Charter prohibits unprovoked attacks only by individual states. The principal legal issue remains, however, since NATO as such is not a member state of the UN, whether the member states of NATO, the United States and the European powers that sent armed forces to attack as part of the NATO bombing campaign, violated the UN Charter by attacking a fellow UN member state: (1) in the absence of UN Security Council authorization, and (2) in the absence of an attack or a threat of imminent attack on them. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_NATO_bombing...

Probably somewhere in Beijing and Moscow on the same day when bombing started, they were opening bottle of champagne because they got "excuse" to do same later when they need it.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#438

Post by mantas » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:44 PM UTC

KptMarchewa wrote: post #189

tokai wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your parsing it all wrong. Russia has land that rightfully belongs to Poland, Finland - and - the Baltic states.

What land, Smolensk? Nobody wants any russian land, let russians pickle themselves in their little hell.

Yes, nobody wants it. But it doesn't change a fact that Muscovites have more questionable lands than they try to claim themselves.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#439

Post by The_Colonel » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:44 PM UTC

majkinetor wrote: post #152

tokai wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>BRICS surpassed the G7 in terms of GDP Maybe. Its hard to be sure when autocratic countries lie about their economic data. edit: for those two with their "everybody lies and are awful" argument (one of the oldest and most beloved Russian tactics whataboutism). You will properly not get it if you don't already understand it - but issues with accuracy has nothing to with doctoring all your numbers to keep the gravy tr…

What makes you so sure G7 countries are 100% honest?

Institutions in democratic countries are much more independent of political pressure.

It might still happen, but there's a high chance that it will come to light sooner rather than later. Whistle-blowers don't have to fear the same repercussions as in autocratic states.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#440

Post by nirav72 » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 6:54 PM UTC

staringback wrote: post #281

nirav72 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO in Afghanistan was because of article 5 after 9/11. Also NATO was not in Iraq. There were some NATO member countries in Iraq as part of a coalition the Bush administration put together. But Iraq was not a NATO operation.

What about Yugoslavia in 1999?

In Yugoslavia , there was literally a civil war happening along ethnic lines on the European continent. Not to mention genocide.