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A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

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Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#431
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The direction of causality should also be reversed from what I can tell. Instead of a bullet slowing down as it hits air molecules and pushes them out of the way, the air molecules push on the bullet because the bullet will be sucked into the barrel in the future. More on topic, I think our existing theories of reality tell us that the future probably affects the past, or at very least, is predetermined. If you know…

but what about reverse falling cartridge? Will spacetime around Earth change from "hole" to "hill"?

I think it's the same thing. The future energy state of the cartridge is that it's in the chamber, so it gets sucked up. It's problematic though, because the direction of gravity doesn't change.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Causality isn't broken; the universe is "simultaneously causal and teleological," because it's superdetermined. There also isn't any free will, because there isn't actually any agent who could have it. Actions we perceive as volitional actually arise in the brain up to 7s before we "choose" them. The sense of a "me" is a post hoc add-on that claims credit for everything, in order to unite the disparate phenomena that…

> There also isn't any free will, because there isn't actually any agent who could have it. The compilation of each possible Play in an Extensive Normal Form Game into a cellular automata can constitute a refutation by counterexample of your claim. It satisfies the agent condition through congruence with the technical language defining the concept of agent in artificial intelligence literature as it relates to agents…

I'm saying your self-concept is only a useful abstraction. It's an evolutionally beneficial illusion that there is any entity called "me" that chooses which action comes next.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#433
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me explain how it relates. The comment advocated that scientists should profess to be philosophers. Why? Presumably because they are engaged in a field of study that philosophers have claimed. Furthermore the author is bothered that they don't. Why? Likely because if scientists acknowledged their status as philosophers, that would raise the status of philosophers. And so the meat of my comment was illustrating by…

> The comment advocated that scientists should profess to be philosophers. This context is helpful, thanks. I didn't advocate anything. I said that it bothers me is that (some) scientists profess not to be philosophers. This is because, in fact, scientists, like all people, actually are philosophers. > It is because I saw the comment as being part of the genre of people who attempt to raise the status of their field…

To the extent that all people are considered philosophers, the claim that person X is a philosopher is meaningless, and therefore is a statement that is not worth making. Just as I do not constantly go around identifying myself with, "human, primate, born on planet Earth, circling the star Sol, in the Milky Way galaxy..." Those statements are true but provide no useful information to anyone distinguishing me from anyone else.

To the extent that "philosopher" is identified with the practice of philosophy as discussed and practiced in philosophy departments, it is a meaningful identifier. But also *SHOULD NOT* be applied to most scientists. For similar reasons, the historical theological roots of early scientists does not make modern fields like chemistry into branches of theology.

As for science distancing itself from its earlier foundations, there is nothing ironic about it. In fact that act is essential to how science as a field operates. The purpose of a scientific education is to indoctrinate the student with the norms, values and knowledge of current scientific paradigms that will allow the student to operate within, extend, challenge, and hopefully improve those paradigms. Exposing the student to the details of outdated approaches only to explain why they became outdated is an activity of limited use, and therefore we strictly limit how many such examples students must learn. And even for those we do not explain previous ideas in detail. What purpose is there in explaining to students who must learn inertia, Aristotle's ideas that all things naturally come to rest? Why would we bother explaining the history of attempts to find mechanisms for and explanations of Noah's Flood to students who are about to learn about the Ice Ages and that Noah's Flood didn't happen?

The first clear description that I know of for this process comes from Thomas Kuhn's book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. At the time he was a physicist who had developed an interest in the history of science. He implicitly assumed a shared context with the reader. People who have mastered a hard science generally have that context. I have that context, and found the book delightful.

Unfortunately after writing that book, he spent a lot of time responding to creative misunderstandings of his work from philosophers who lacked that context. I found little value in those criticisms, or in his responses. Yet another example of how I've found a lack of value in philosophy as practiced by philosophers.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#435
post #383
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The compatibilist view is that there is no contradiction between free will and determinism, because free will refers to macro states and determinism refers to micro states. In addition, in the many-worlds view of quantum mechanics, we don’t follow just a single sequence of events, but all physically possible sequences of events, where the points where sequences branch off each other can correspond to different decisi…

Where exactly might the free will be, then? Compatibilism is a fancy way of saying "free will so much does not exist that what determists call free will isn't even a valid definition to use as a starting point for investigating an answer." It's not an answer to the question, it's a denial of it. Another, simpler interpretation of Compatibilism is "if free will doesn't exist, then believing it exists or not has 0 effe…

Definition is theory, free will is reality. When they diverge, it's theory which is improved to match reality, not the other way around.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#436
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The comment advocated that scientists should profess to be philosophers. This context is helpful, thanks. I didn't advocate anything. I said that it bothers me is that (some) scientists profess not to be philosophers. This is because, in fact, scientists, like all people, actually are philosophers. > It is because I saw the comment as being part of the genre of people who attempt to raise the status of their field…

To the extent that all people are considered philosophers, the claim that person X is a philosopher is meaningless, and therefore is a statement that is not worth making. Just as I do not constantly go around identifying myself with, "human, primate, born on planet Earth, circling the star Sol, in the Milky Way galaxy..." Those statements are true but provide no useful information to anyone distinguishing me from any…

> To the extent that all people are considered philosophers, the claim that person X is a philosopher is meaningless

If ideas had no consequences, this might be true; but since ideas do have consequences, this is probably not true.

> For similar reasons, the historical theological roots of early scientists does not make modern fields like chemistry into branches of theology.

A theologian might disagree with you about this. How would you go about demonstrating that this opinion is incorrect?

> As for science distancing itself from its earlier foundations, there is nothing ironic about it. In fact that act is essential to how science as a field operates.

Scientific progress suggests that we produce more theoretically plausible interpretations of phenomena. As we do that, we often undercut or discard the axioms that produce these new theories: that is what is ironic.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good idea, but how could they be, in fact ?

Why not? What do you mean?

The complaint (a very valid and important one, imho) is that physicists are ~inadequately curious about philosophy - this is the current state of affairs.

To make this no longer be (at some point in the future) the state of affairs, how could it be done (make it "in fact")?

"Why not?" seems like a decent first attack to the problem - why are physicists (or, scientists in general) so bad at philosophy? For one, I would nominate the "When you have a powerful hammer, everything looks like a nail" psychological phenomenon, as one plausible part of the puzzle.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point us to The Territory please? You see it, I presume?

My eyes are a fairly reliable map, but they're still not the territory. That we are only able to perceive reality by proxy doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, though, it just means that we have to get used to using maps, while remembering that they can be flawed.

> My eyes are a fairly reliable map, but they're still not the territory.

This seems.....paradoxical...ironic?

> That we are only able to perceive reality by proxy doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, though....

True, but potentially misleading/misinformative.

> ...it just means that...

Are you sure? Are you referring to the territory here, or the map?

>...we have to get used to using maps, while remembering that they can be flawed.

We've been using maps since the dawn of man, and a lot of people have substantial, abstract knowledge that this is what we're doing....and yet, look at the mess all around us, and the conversations we have about that mess (though: during these conversations, are the participants discussing the map, or the territory: a) in fact? b) in perception?).

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#439
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you profe to me that the physical space between everything isn’t?

Planck length.

Yes I know what was meant and that’s my point. That is not a physical proof but a mathematical abstraction.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#440
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Slow down. Assuming that time moves in one direction is not comparable to geocentrism. Why not? The "arrow of time" almost always requires thermodynamic arguments. And that requires a concentration of "low entropy" to move toward "high entropy". Which, by definition, are "boundary conditions" and not a fundamental part of your physical rules. If, for example, your universe is entropically uniform, is there an "arro…

> If, for example, your universe is entropically uniform, is there an "arrow of time"? No. For a system at thermodynamics equilibrium entropy is constant, neither increasing nor decreasing. So there is no arrow of time, no sense in which one direction is "the future" and the other "the past".

If a universe were entropically uniform, wouldn't the arrow of time definitely be negative? Wouldn't any random evolution result in a lessening of entropy by definition?
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