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Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

robkhenderson.substack.com

431–440 of 684 posts

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#431
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic hypotheses for the pro-affirmative action crowd are: 1) Black people are not actually less “good at stuff”, we just have a habit of defining “stuff” in a way that excludes the things that black people are more likely to excel at. And, 2) Where black people do statistically worse, it’s not due to any innate difference, it’s because socially accepted “normal” support systems are more useful for people with ch…

Sorry, but I take offense at this "it is all a matter of opinion and all opinions are equally valid" BS. 1) It is trivially true that if you define your measure right, you can make anyone succeed. For example black people are better at looking like black people. But we try to define "stuff" in a way that correlates with ability to do economically useful tasks. There are excellent reasons to do so. 2) You are ignoring…

>The scientific truth is that we have no data either way that can even begin to address whether one group is innately better than any other. The reason being that we have no way to separate out the impact of racism and history from innate ability.

I'm sorry but this is blatantly false. "Innately better" is a vague and inflammatory term, but if you define the measure, we can use straightforward statistical techniques to find correlations.

Simple example: East Africans outperform others in long-distance running. In sprinting, west Africans outperform.

We can separate confounders out because we have large data sets. You don't have to just try to compare populations as a mass. We can, for example, look at performance only of black people raised in white families. Or rich black people. Or white people raised in black families. Etc.

Taking the example of IQ, which is the most important statistical measure in these discussions, we can also look at poor populations with high IQ, like Jews (at certain historical times) or various groups of people from East Asia. Vietnamese boat people are a great comparison. It has to be explained how they were so successful despite facing the very similar or arguably worse challenges (e.g. holocaust) as other population groups.

Or look at subgroups of black people, like Nigerian immigrants to America, who have generally better social outcomes than average whites.

All this has been studied to death for decades and many conclusions are well-supported by statistics (at least as well-supported as lots of noncontroversial findings).

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think standardized tests were the way to go, but... My kid recently went through another testing gauntlet, which is the 11+ test. For those who aren't in the Southeast corner of the UK, this is a multiple choice type test that looks a lot like an IQ test in some ways. It's a single sitting and determines whether you are allowed into something called a Grammar School, which is just a selective school, and th…

I think what might actually be hard to game is teacher recommendations. After all these people have been with the kid for a long time and know what they can do. They also tend to be distanced enough that they don't have to say good things about every kid. When I was 11, I had a teacher lean over during class and tell me how much she didn't like me, that I was the laziest student she had ever had, and that she couldn'…

I had a similar experience in sixth grade. Completely insane.

On the other hand, it taught me early how life actually works.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#433
post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

I used to think standardized tests were the way to go, but... My kid recently went through another testing gauntlet, which is the 11+ test. For those who aren't in the Southeast corner of the UK, this is a multiple choice type test that looks a lot like an IQ test in some ways. It's a single sitting and determines whether you are allowed into something called a Grammar School, which is just a selective school, and th…

Teachers are people and so subject to bias, favoritism, and just plain malevolence. They also can be bribed.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#434
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a simple and effective way of achieving the goals they claim to be championing. And what are the real goals of these institutions? The whole approach of having artificially limited education where people are sifted into higher and lower status classes based upon judgements made when they're teenagers is premised on elitism, not equity. That's the purpose of these institutions - not to education as many peop…

That public funds can go to private schools like Harvard is such a joke.

Okay. Why?

Some of the public funds come by way of Pell Grants. What's so terrible about poor kids getting a top-tier education?

Other mechanisms are research grants. You don't think it's in the public's interest to incentivize graduate students at top institutions to do socially beneficial research?

Help me understand what your objection is to federal policy, and what you wish federal policy were instead.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a former educator and tutor. The effects of studying "for the test" as you put have been measured, improved test taking skills tends to be worth ~30 points which is not that significant. This matches my anecdotal experience and that of people I know who run SAT prep courses. It's far more effective to actually teach students the material, either by teaching them new concepts or by firming up their understanding t…

I'm familiar with that 30 point differential because it shows up in research. You're right that 30 points isn't that much if you're thinking about the whole distribution, but I guarantee it can be significant around the selection threshold. That threshold might be implicit or explicit, but it's there, and if it's enough to nudge applicants past it, it's significant.

Sure, but having read a large chunk of educational literature I'm not aware of any alternatives with fewer distortions from parental aid. Grades correlate more highly with a good home life than test scores do, for example.

As long as we have "prestige" universities there's going to be some form of skills testing, and no one has ever designed an un-gameable test that can be administered nationally. The question we have to ask ourselves then is how we can reduce game-ability and I doubt we can make improvements that are more than incremental.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#436
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the other way around. It helps to have some familiarity with the test, so test prep has some value, but some rich kids can’t test their way out of a paper bag. The one thing they could do is hire a ringer to take the test for them, otherwise it is a valuable form of downward mobility which presents a “barrier” to them hoarding opportunity from someone more able.

Correct. It’s a way to “cycle the elites”. A healthy society will always include an elite minority. But to remain healthy there needs to be a way to circulate the elites so that those that should rise have methods to and those that should fall get their spot taken. Trying to engineer this around arbitrary things like sex or race can’t work because those people don’t have what it takes in the end.

> a way to circulate the elites

Thr proper terminology is Sovial Mobility

> arbitrary things like sex or race can’t work

They work as a litmus test-> if you are massively excluding someome, probably something in the process is fucked.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#437
post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

Interestingly I feel the same way about coding interviews, which HN seems to hate. I feel like studying and doing well on my coding interviews helped me get into top companies that otherwise would probably pass over my decidedly non-elite resume.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#438

I agree with the article. The SAT is a chance for any student, regardless of background, to demonstrate academic skills and the ability to succeed. I was one of those students -- my SAT score got me a full merit scholarship. I wasn't as polished or accomplished as other students around me, but I was able to show that yes, I am smart, and that I can succeed academically at the college level. I did go to a korean after…

Maybe I'm missing something because you and the author seem to agree, but I think schools are moving toward test-optional applications, not test-ignored. So it still could show that a student is excelling. Right?

One can't file a lawsuit against test-optional schools for discrimination. In the end, test-optional = test-ignored

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I attended Caltech, there was no evidence that it was a rich kids school. For example, very few students had a car. The ones that did had a Bug or an old Ford pickup. I don't recall anyone wearing tailored clothes, the students mostly wore completely unremarkable stuff. When I'd meet their parents, they were perfectly ordinary people.

I don't think the data supports this: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobilit... I do think it's true that Caltech students are all very passionate about STEM, so the average family wealth is less apparent.

> the data

Keep in mind that I attended in the 70s. Nothing stays the same. I have little idea if Caltech is the same today as then, and rather doubt it. One obvious change is their mission statement has changed drastically. In the 1978 "Caltech Information for Students" pg 105 it says simply:

> The primary purpose of the undergraduate school of the California Institute of Technology, as stated by the Trustees, is "to provide a collegiate education which will best train the creative type of scientist or engineer so urgently needed in our educational, governmental, and industrial development."

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#440

Standardized tests remain the only criteria totally in the control of the student. You can study for them and objectively do better, become a better applicant. Everthing else is either circumstantial or based in the opinion of others, mostly highschool teachers. If i had to rely on my highschool teachers' opinion of me i would not have ever gone to university let alone have won scholarships. Standardized testing allo…

In re to LSAT at least a decade ago your LSAT score meant shit. I’m S Asian, scored 99th percentile 17x, but my GPA was around 3.3 because I think college is a joke when it involves homework. I had never gotten less than a A on midterms and finals, but what I’m trying to say is that GPA and race matters much more. There was a law school acceptance calculator. With my scores and my Asian background, the T14 were eithe…

> Yes I don’t give a shit about homework, I understand the material which is why I’m slaying each test. I hated that about college. We are adults. I’m paying to get an education, why the fuck is homework 20% of the grade? It’s practice, for people who don’t get the material.

So what you're admitting is that you are willing to not to do required parts of your job because you don't feel they're important. If you go out into the workforce and become a lawyer, what parts of your job are equally willing to blow off because you don't like them? Billing clients properly? Procedural stuff like filing answers properly?

You're basically arguing that your unwillingness to do the assigned tasks not be held against you.

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