Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code • Hacker News Board

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#431

Post by vladvasiliu » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:15 PM UTC

that_guy_iain wrote: post #429

> Our diagnosis is that individual developers do not pay for tools. Quite simply developers are not decision makers. Often engineering managers aren't even decision makers. I fully believe if you want to dominate in that area you need to target decision makers who force it upon their developers. How many of us have been told we're using X database or we're using X project management tool or even X virtualisation syst…

This.

I've seen many other commenters lament the fact that "even though devs make a boatload of money, they don't want to pay for their tools".

This may be true.

But I think the biggest issue is that most developers are only developers "at work". And I've seen far too many people work with subpar tools (old, dingy PCs that would take ages to do anything). Management thinks this is fine, and that a 5 yo intel U laptop with 8 GB RAM is AOK for running heavy computations in 2022.

So, going out of their way to buy some "text editor" when vscode is free? Not gonna happen. Even if the devs themselves are convinced.

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#432

Post by lefstathiou » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:19 PM UTC

LASR wrote: post #235

> Our diagnosis is that individual developers do not pay for tools. I know this first hand, building a developer tool startup and failing to reach any level of revenue. In the end, the tech was bought out by a larger company to recover a fraction of our VC investment. The challenge is that when you're building software for developers, they already know how it must work. It's like trying to sell magic tricks to magici…

We are in the market for an on prem OCR tool. Would you mind making a referral to your buddy? Email in my profile.

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#433

Post by oblio » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:20 PM UTC

newaccount74 wrote: post #427

jollofricepeas wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Sublime Text. I sat through scores of interviews and pairing sessions with developers back when Sublime was a thing and the vast majority (>90%) of devs would rather exit out of that pop-up asking for support then pay the measly $30 or whatever regardless of their massive incomes and increased productivity that Sublime brought them. We developers are no more altruistic than anyone else regardless of the lies we…

> the vast majority (>90%) of devs would rather exit out of that pop-up Converting just 5% of users to paying customers is considered pretty good for shareware/freemium, so just because you saw a lot of people using the trial does not mean it is unsustainable. I have no idea how much the developer of Sublime Text makes, but considering that they have been around since 2008 I would assume it's definitely sustainable.

Yeah, but it's generally the kind of money that only allows having a mom-and-pop store. 1-2-5 employees, that's it. If you have a bigger initiative, you can't do it.

Instead, Mega Corp just buys you out when you burn out after many years of development, we see this happening regularly.

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#434

Post by bombolo » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:33 PM UTC

mythz wrote: post #267

irrational wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a web developer. My company pays for JetBrains IntelliJ for me. And I love it. But, if I had to pay for it out of my own pocket, I’d use VS Code instead. I’ve used both and IntelliJ is superior to VS Code, but not to such an extent that I would pay my own money for it. But I’m more than happy to have my company buy it for me.

JetBrains IDE's is the most notable exception of dev tools I personally pay for, insane value and productivity makes it a no-brainer purchase given its instant ROI from time saved. Life's too short to not maximize your productivity for a few $'s.

> Life's too short to not maximize your productivity for a few $'s.

I feel that's not my problem as an employee. I work the same amount of time regardless.

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#435

Post by HeavyStorm » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:35 PM UTC

> You can see this in Github Copilot, which is built by Github in collaboration with Open AI. As of late 2022, Copilot shows a lot of promise but still has a long way to go.

This sounds like spite. Sure, copilot can be even better (what can't?) but it's already a great tool. It has a small learning curve (which is just getting comfortable with it) and then it can add a lot to your productivity. Of course, this is orthogonal to any copyright polemics out there.

Kite never got close to what copilot is.

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#436

Post by oblio » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:35 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #190

malwrar wrote: post #134

“Our 500k developers would not pay to use it. Our diagnosis is that individual developers do not pay for tools.” I don’t like depending on something I could lose in a month or tethers me to the internet. I consider that more a service than a tool. I’d prefer to just buy something once that just works, but that business model might be dead too since people will pirate things that aren't tethered to some serverside com…

Software developers are also more likely than most to be "free software people". I for one am excited to see Kite go open source; if it's truly open, including the underlying recommendation models and algorithms, I will be happy to use it and set up a monthly donation for whoever wants to keep working on it.

> If it's truly open, including the underlying recommendation models and algorithms, I will be happy to use it and set up a monthly donation for whoever wants to keep working on it.

Knowing examples such as Hudson CI & co, that probably makes it "no one", at a statistical scale.

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#437

Post by bombolo » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:36 PM UTC

BMorearty wrote: post #339

mythz wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JetBrains IDE's is the most notable exception of dev tools I personally pay for, insane value and productivity makes it a no-brainer purchase given its instant ROI from time saved. Life's too short to not maximize your productivity for a few $'s.

Agreed. JetBrains and GitHub Copilot are the two exceptions for me as an individual programmer.

> GitHub Copilot are the two exceptions for me as an individual programmer

I'm sure your boss will be overjoyed when the company will get hit by a lawsuit :)

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#438

Post by HeavyStorm » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:37 PM UTC

LASR wrote: post #235

> Our diagnosis is that individual developers do not pay for tools. I know this first hand, building a developer tool startup and failing to reach any level of revenue. In the end, the tech was bought out by a larger company to recover a fraction of our VC investment. The challenge is that when you're building software for developers, they already know how it must work. It's like trying to sell magic tricks to magici…

I've paid for jetbrains multiple times, even though it's quite expensive for someone making money in a a third world currency. I pay for copilot.

However, I would never pay for stuff that I can get free. I could talk to my company to buy it, but I would settle for something close and free if it come to that.

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#439

Post by mirzap » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:38 PM UTC

LASR wrote: post #235

> Our diagnosis is that individual developers do not pay for tools. I know this first hand, building a developer tool startup and failing to reach any level of revenue. In the end, the tech was bought out by a larger company to recover a fraction of our VC investment. The challenge is that when you're building software for developers, they already know how it must work. It's like trying to sell magic tricks to magici…

They do pay, but they can not pay same amount as some corporation can. If you target individuals you need to find good pricing model for them. The best model - at least for me, that always attract me is pay for a year of subscription to updates. After 1y passes you can pay at lower rate to continue receiving updates for new features and bug fixes or you can continue to use the latest version before your support has expired. I'm hooked instantly to this since it brings me value without constant commitment. One year I may decide to extend one tool, the other I pay extension for other tool.

Jetbrains' pricing model is also good, they reduce price each year (until 3rd), so you get rewarded for having a long term subscription. If you break commitment you get the regular pricing and you start over.

I remember trying Kite, but I removed it once I saw the pricing. It was more expensive than Jetbrains IDEs (which are less than 2$ a month for individuals when you pay in a bundle - 149$ at the time) which bring much more value for the money. For me it didn't make sense to pay 20$ for just incremental improvement (if even that) over Jetbrains Intelisense.

Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code

#440

Post by dspillett » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 12:39 PM UTC

Yizahi wrote: post #426

lycopodiopsida wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should an multinational IT company aiming at developers talk in a local language? How does a heritage of founders matters? Google is half a russian company by that metric, as in "Sergey Brin". JetBrains is a Czech company because it was created in Czech Republic and is operated from Czech Republic. They've had significant development resources in pre-war Russia, like many big companies, because it was a cheap and…

The war started in Feb 2014, just saying. JB closed offices only when they become afraid of getting squashed by new USA secondary sanctions, not because they opposed war.

> started in Feb 2014, just saying

Depending on what you count you could give a number of other dates, some significantly earlier than 2014. The current massive offensive, which is significant enough that pointing out they reacted then and not in 2014 or some other date is at best being facetious & disingenuous, started in force in Feb 2022.

Just saying.