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Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

forum.snapcraft.io

431–440 of 443 posts

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#431
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, like you audit the thousands of lines of code when you compile from source.

Yes, I look at code. I'm professional developer. I will spend 1-2 minutes at scanning per thousand of lines.

I’m a developer too. Currently job title “senior enterprise systems engineer”. It would take me much longer than that to ensure the code is ok. Additionally without modelling the code (and proving it correct) in something like COQ, you will never understand the calculus of inductive constructions behind the code and have no guarantees as to its correctness.

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#432
post #420
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? I can inspect downloaded code and find the backdoor, or a trojan, or an error. I did it few times already in last 30 years. If you cannot do that doesn't mean that nobody can. But I cannot do that with `curl | bash`.

If you can't save the output of curl into a file, you certainly aren't one of the few people capable of meaningfully inspecting anything you download.

I cam do that on MY machine. I cannot do that on your. I can download code, inspect it, install, and then create a RPM package, which can be installed in a safe way by DNF package manager, but I cannot do that with `curl | bash` method of installation.

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#433
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't it better to reach out without invoking a DCMA and see if the other party is willing to cooperate first? That would still be your lawyers talking to their lawyers. The channels for handling DMCA takedowns are much more efficient than channels for handling something custom.

Those channels are illegal to use outside of the copyright issues they're intended for. It's not just a free "hey take this down for me, will ya?" button.

If there was an icon, that could have be what was copyrighted. Perhaps it's from the usage of the deb package. The creator of a project that uses the GPL can actually have a download link to that software which is under a different license that is not freely distributable.

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trusting Signal to provide the source and host the servers.

Okay, but that's not what any of the parties in this current case are doing: the Snap in question is a third-party build, not a source distribution. My understanding (as an outsider) is that Signal doesn't object to you building yourself a copy of Signal Desktop for source, but they do object to anybody building it for others , especially when they brand it as "Signal." That doesn't seem especially unreasonable to me…

I already trust Debian's repositories with my system; so getting Signal from Debian's repositories would not make my system or Signal more vulnerable. By adding Signal's deb repositories, I need to also trust Signal not to mess with the rest of my system.

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#435
post #404
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mix up concepts. The client app is responsible for e2ee, you don't have to care about the server. So you can actually audit the client code and make sure it is e2ee, which you cannot do with WhatsApp. In other words, for e2ee you must trust WhatsApp, not Signal. I presume that for the outdated code, you think about the server code. That's different and would imply metadata, not message content. Signal is e2ee, an…

> Signal is e2ee, and you don't have to trust them for that. Only if both sides are using clients that are self-compiled, independently-compiled (and audited), deterministic/reproducible or third-party. The problem is that the network and the app are the same people, and worse than that; they send binaries and expect you to trust them. I know lip service is paid to reproducibility but afaik the instructions for doing…

> I just get a greasy feeling from the lock-in, the heavy marketing, the fact that everyone refuses to speak critically of them unless it’s about anonymous usernames.

There are two things: First, say the Android apk they distribute has a backdoor, and someone realizes that (it's distributed to millions of people, could be that someone checks). Then that's the end of Signal, right? So that's a big risk for them. That's for the "mass surveillance" scenario. Not perfect, but that's something. Second, if you fear a targeted attack, then self-compile Signal. It's not that difficult if you care about it.

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#436
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This threat model was at the heart of Maemo's and later Meego's app store criteria. Both APT and RPM repository trust model is flat: all repositories have the same privileges to make packages available for upload, and can declare any dependencies they choose in their packages. This allows a third party to override any package in the system. Doesn't matter who provides the repository, because ownership can change. Eve…

I think I addressed this in the adjacent reply[1]. Yes, there's a legitimate risk (and accompanying threat model) when trusting package repositories. But I don't understand the specific threat model that involves not trusting Signal's package repository while (1) trusting a random third-party package that (2) just redistributes (in the best case) the official binary. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33455836

The threat model here isn't about trusting one third-party repo and distrusting another. It's about trusting any third-party repository without exceptionally good reasons.

I trust Signal, the company, as an author of specific type of communications software. I hesitate to trust them with root on my systems. The company and their intentions are, for the best of my knowledge, benign - but I have seen far too many well-meaning packaging snafus over the past 25 years to add even them to my sources.list.d; and in fact, I believe that with the actions of the company over the past ~three years they have squandered lot of the goodwill they had built up. I'm sorry to say, but the theme to me has felt like one of miscommunication combined with a lack of foresight.

I do trust they have had good reasons for everything. But optics are important, and for stewards of such a critical piece of software Signal have come up with questionably announced surprises. In a domain where boring is the characteristic everyone looks for.[ß]

A bit more context. As of now, there are only two third-party APT repositories that I can stomach. The official Postgres repo, and the Deadsnakes PPA. Both are maintained by the actual package maintainers, so they benefit from the assumed baseline and robustness.

ß: btw, I understand the SMS stuff. From an engineering effort perspective it makes sense, given what shitshow the SMS/MMS protocol stacks are. And with RCS, future integration would not be guaranteed at all. But it still came as a surprise.

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#437
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get the license without respecting the trademark. e) Declining to grant rights under trademark law for use of some trade names, trademarks, or service marks; or

Read the full context of that rule. The entire section allows those provisions to be applied, it does not make those provisions. The APGLv3 disallows any further restrictions beyond the license to be applied, except for a handful of exceptions. That's one of them. And if such an exception is made, further instructions are provided to inform downstream users of them. Signal did not follow those instructions and didn't…

Even without that, this is on their website.

Signal’s Rights. We own all copyrights, trademarks, domains, logos, trade dress, trade secrets, patents, and other intellectual property rights associated with our Services. You may not use our copyrights, trademarks, domains, logos, trade dress, patents, and other intellectual property rights unless you have our written permission. To report copyright, trademark, or other intellectual property infringement, please contact abuse@signal.org.

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#438
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those channels are illegal to use outside of the copyright issues they're intended for. It's not just a free "hey take this down for me, will ya?" button.

If there was an icon, that could have be what was copyrighted. Perhaps it's from the usage of the deb package. The creator of a project that uses the GPL can actually have a download link to that software which is under a different license that is not freely distributable.

The icon is in the repo covered by the AGPLv3. Signal-Desktop does not have a CLA that would enable them to license the built binary anything but AGPLv3, as they do not have sole copyright over the code. They themselves are also bound by the AGPLv3.

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#439
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the full context of that rule. The entire section allows those provisions to be applied, it does not make those provisions. The APGLv3 disallows any further restrictions beyond the license to be applied, except for a handful of exceptions. That's one of them. And if such an exception is made, further instructions are provided to inform downstream users of them. Signal did not follow those instructions and didn't…

Even without that, this is on their website. Signal’s Rights. We own all copyrights, trademarks, domains, logos, trade dress, trade secrets, patents, and other intellectual property rights associated with our Services. You may not use our copyrights, trademarks, domains, logos, trade dress, patents, and other intellectual property rights unless you have our written permission. To report copyright, trademark, or other…

They own it, sure, but they license it out freely. They've released their work under a license that allows anyone use of their trademark, as long as they stick by the AGPLv3. The AGPLv3 is written permission.

Re: Snap Store administrators removed signal-desktop from Ubuntu Snap

#440
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the issue, it's (at most) a trademark violation instead of a copyright violation, which means the DMCA complaint was filed under false premises.

I don't see where the source was being offered by the distributors of this package which would mean they were in violation of the AGPL and it was therefore a copyright violation.

The AGPLv3 only requires that you make the source available, that can even be on request, that can be on a CD. You can even, to quote the AGPLv3 itself, charge for that CD "for a price no more than your reasonable cost of physically performing this conveying of source."

But that's not what's going on here. If the source is unchanged, it's perfectly valid (and often done) to just point people upstream. That is providing the source. And the code used to build their snap is available*, and you can see all it does is repackage upstream's official package.

* https://github.com/snapcrafters/signal-desktop/blob/master/s...

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