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NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

iapps.courts.state.ny.us

431–440 of 443 posts

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought about this for several moments, and I disagree. Vaccines offer some personal protection but predominantly become effective by achieving herd immunity. Vaccine hesitancy undermines this goal and weakens the system. Being pro-vaccine is senseless without being in favor of enough people being vaccinated to provide strong immunity, including for those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical complications. Even…

One can be absolutely pro-vaccine, want to drive down vaccine hesitancy rates and still think that mandating vaccinations is not the way to go. For example they could argue that people will rebel against "you must do X" reflectively, but a well designed and sensitive information campaign might win them over.

> One can be absolutely pro-vaccine, want to drive down vaccine hesitancy rates and still think that mandating vaccinations is not the way to go.

One would then be quite ignorant of the history of how vaccines are rolled out. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211029-why-mandatory-va...

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought about this for several moments, and I disagree. Vaccines offer some personal protection but predominantly become effective by achieving herd immunity. Vaccine hesitancy undermines this goal and weakens the system. Being pro-vaccine is senseless without being in favor of enough people being vaccinated to provide strong immunity, including for those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical complications. Even…

This definition of "anti-vax" is broad enough to include those who happily received the vaccine, but oppose mandates. That really isn't what normal people infer from the term.

That's because being anti-mandate is effectively being anti-vax from a public health policy perspective. By construction, effective public health can't be about individual choice, and the astonishing efficacy of vaccines in history has relied on this principle.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#433
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part? Speaking as a lawyer, reading this, it feels like it will be overturned almost immediately, and possibly reassigned to a different judge. There is very little legal analysis, and a large amount of unnecessary, biased, diatribe. Appeals courts rarely look kindly on that.

All of it? I think people of a particular viewpoint have allowed their bias to drown out reason. To top it all off, it will be very difficult to argue in good faith the mandate was not arbitrary. It quite literally came down to a single dude deciding who he liked better. Just in this very thread we have people admonishing Adams for "ruining" the mandate, and if he had just been more careful then all these anti-vaxxer…

I actually have no view on the substance of the case. If the decision went the opposite way I would still give you the same view- legal decisions that are closer to political diatribes than they are well reasoned legal argument do not fair well on appeals.

This is definitely in that category. It reads like an internet argument on Reddit, not a judicial decision

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will always take 9+ months to figure out what the effects are for a mother that was vaccinated before conception, for instance. A couple of things. First, pregnant women are generally excluded from vaccine trials - this isn't something specific to the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. Second, what is the scientific basis for thinking that vaccination before pregnancy will affect women at the end of their pregnancy (that is,…

> First, pregnant women are generally excluded from vaccine trials - this isn't something specific to the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. This is perhaps not an argument in favor of the proven safety of vaccines for pregnant women. > Second, what is the scientific basis for thinking that vaccination before pregnancy will affect women at the end of their pregnancy (that is, 9+ months later)? When you propose a possible harm, the…

> We fundamentally do not understand the human body.

This is not true. We understand a great deal about the human body. What's relevant here is that we understand the mechanisms that cause serious vaccine side-effects, and we understand why those side-effects appear within a few months.

> Spike protein accumulating in cardiac tissue leading to myocarditis.

Myocarditis occurs soon after vaccination, not long afterwards. It's also a very rare side-effect (it actually occurs more often from the virus itself).

> The whole point of a vaccine is to cause long term effects. That intended effect is immunity to disease.

What does this have to do with long-term adverse side-effects? The types of changes that a vaccine causes in the immune system are understood, and the reasons why those changes sometimes cause adverse side-effects are also understood. The mechanisms do not spring into action years later. The side-effects begin within months, at the latest.

> "Nothing else could possibly persist" smacks of hubris to me.

You're just dismissing immunology out-of-hand, based on vague statements about science not knowing how the body works.

> especially when the process has been politicized.

The politicization was on the side of the vaccine "skeptics." One of the most infuriating aspects of the pandemic has been how the most effective single tool for saving lives, a tool that has minuscule risks, has been subject to so much FUD. This tool is safe enough and beneficial enough that I would have absolutely no problem with mandating it for participation in society, the same way that seat belts and airbags are mandated.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There wasn't hate, at least not broadly. There was anger, sure, but not hate. At the time the focus was on making sure the vaccinations were taken seriously so as to protect those who couldn't do it, and plenty of people instead made ideological and self-centered decisions (their right to do so) rather than compassionate and ethical ones.

There wasn't broad levels of hate? Da fuq? People were being called plague rats, scum, degenerates, etc. At societal, national, international, levels, unvaccinated people were 'other'ed to an extremely disturbing degree - fired from work, separated from loved ones, locked indoors, bashed on national media at all levels. People were talking, and still talk of denying them medical treatment, ending the Geneva conventio…

> There wasn't broad levels of hate?

> Da fuq?

> People were being called plague rats, scum, degenerates, etc. At societal, national, international, levels, unvaccinated people were 'other'ed to an extremely disturbing degree - fired from work, separated from loved ones, locked indoors, bashed on national media at all levels.

> People were talking, and still talk of denying them medical treatment, ending the Geneva convention, altering the Declaration of Human Rights, etc, to force people into taking "perfectly safe and 100% effective" vaccines. Which weren't that at all.

> Anyone who spoke out for them was the target of immediate white-hot anger. Don't know where you live to have missed all this, but claiming there wasn't broad levels of hate is just gaslighting, and I don't like it.

Right, that sounds like what I said earlier, mandmandam:

"There was anger, sure, but not hate" - and you affirmed it; white-hot anger. And it was deserved. But broad hate, no. We just wanted people to be responsible.

When you violate the social contract (protecting others by doing what's due), you attract anger.

I'm not really here to debate it; anyone saying otherwise is spinning our anger for others' irresponsibility and others' putting the immunocompromised in danger.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was commensurate with your reply. What exactly is the cause and what is the effect that you think I have backwards?

You think that the authorities are creating an internal enemy to sow division. I am saying that the visceral reaction to plague is an instinctive human universal, not something that has to be cultivated.

> You think that the authorities are creating an internal enemy to sow division.

They do and have done so many times throughout history.

> I am saying that the visceral reaction to plague is an instinctive human universal, not something that has to be cultivated.

Fear is an instinctive response to many things, and that can be and is manipulated.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#437
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The legislature has delegated a vague do everything to the agency. I should have been clearer here. I made a general statement about determining what an agency may or may not do based on a mission statement. This is always a mistake that you want to avoid. But it’s not really relevant to this case! The judge didn’t find that the agency overstepped its authority. Instead, the judge found that the agency had created…

> because it treated certain groups of people differently, even though they were in the same situation. The judge can find whatever they want but to pretend that a sportsball player is the same as a city employee is obviously bogus. EO 62 [1] very clearly layed out the difference in their situation as concert performers and sportsball players will increase the economic activity of NYC. A city employee just doesn't ha…

A random unvaccinated public employee _is_ in the same situation as a random unvaccinated private employee. Either they should both be allowed to go to their place of work and work, or neither of them should. No rational basis can exist for a rule that says that it is unsafe for an accountant working for the government to visit their accounting office, but that it is safe for an accountant working in the private sector to visit their office. The virus doesn’t know if you are a private employee or not; either visiting the office is safe or it is unsafe. It cannot be both.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#438
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But congregating inside a church building is not something that needs to be prioritized during a pandemic. Schools and daycares first. Not everyone puts priorities in that order. For many people, religion is much, much more important than daycare. Plus, any order which treats businesses differently is going to be arbitrary. If you can go to a school but not a bar, then that is arbitrary.

> If you can go to a school but not a bar, then that is arbitrary. It literally is not. I don't think you understand what "arbitrary" means. It's not "I don't see the difference". > For many people, religion is much, much more important than daycare. So have the service in the parking lot of the church. Or on an open field, the way JC used to preach. Not having daycare is far more disruptive to far more people object…

> I don't think you understand what "arbitrary" means. It's not "I don't see the difference".

Arbitrary here means that the rule wasn’t decided rationally. The government must typically establish a “rational basis” for any rule that they want to impose on people.

It is commonly understood that being indoors with a lot of people increases the risk of transmitting a virus between those people. The risk is understood to go up when more people are present, but it is also higher when the building is smaller than when it is larger.

Thus, a rational basis for the maximum occupancy of a building during a pandemic would be based on the number of people per square foot. A rule such as “1 person per 100 square feet” treats both large and small groups fairly, as well as treating large and small buildings fairly.

When we look at specific rules that were actually in place during the pandemic, we often find that there was no such rational basis. The rules were instead arbitrary. In NYC, churches were limited to a flat 10 people in the building at any one time, regardless of the size of the church building. This limits a large church more than a small one, and thus the rule is arbitrary. It would have been no more arbitrary if they had rolled dice to pick the number.

Similarly, the same rule in NYC did not apply to big–box hardware stores. A Home Depot could have hundreds of people in it all the time! No matter how important hardware stores are, this is an arbitrary distinction. There is no rational basis under which the virus is dangerous to a group of 11 people who are in a church, but not to a group of 11 people who are in a Home Depot. The relative importance of churches and Home Depots is not important. What is important is that the difference in how the rule applied to them was arbitrary.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#439
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can go to a school but not a bar, then that is arbitrary. It literally is not. I don't think you understand what "arbitrary" means. It's not "I don't see the difference". > For many people, religion is much, much more important than daycare. So have the service in the parking lot of the church. Or on an open field, the way JC used to preach. Not having daycare is far more disruptive to far more people object…

> I don't think you understand what "arbitrary" means. It's not "I don't see the difference". Arbitrary here means that the rule wasn’t decided rationally. The government must typically establish a “rational basis” for any rule that they want to impose on people. It is commonly understood that being indoors with a lot of people increases the risk of transmitting a virus between those people. The risk is understood to…

> The relative importance of churches and Home Depots is not important.

It absolutely is. The risk between churchgoing and Home Depot shopping, or going to school vs a bar may be equivalent, if we accept your analysis. But when taking risks, we also consider benefit. Risk for little to no benefit is best not taken. Risk for benefit may be worth taking, depending on how much benefit. If you can't accept this basic principle, there's no point in continuing this discussion further.

Education/childcare and having a habitable home are more important, objectively, than getting drinks or worshipping in-person inside of a building. Safe alternatives for the latter existed - drinking beers on your porch, or having church services in a field.

Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay

#440
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you understand what "arbitrary" means. It's not "I don't see the difference". Arbitrary here means that the rule wasn’t decided rationally. The government must typically establish a “rational basis” for any rule that they want to impose on people. It is commonly understood that being indoors with a lot of people increases the risk of transmitting a virus between those people. The risk is understood to…

> The relative importance of churches and Home Depots is not important. It absolutely is. The risk between churchgoing and Home Depot shopping, or going to school vs a bar may be equivalent, if we accept your analysis. But when taking risks, we also consider benefit. Risk for little to no benefit is best not taken. Risk for benefit may be worth taking, depending on how much benefit. If you can't accept this basic pri…

Not everyone judges the importance of things the same way. If it is ok to force churches to meet outside (and many churches did), why not force Home Depot to move their goods outside to sell?

> Risk for benefit may be worth taking, depending on how much benefit.

This is true. We each judge both the level of risk of each action we take, and the amount of benefit we gain from it. It is an _individual_ decision whether or not to go into a building, based on our _individual_ level of risk tolerance and our _individual_ benefit from whatever is in the building.

As a result, we long ago decided that if the government wants to step in and ban something that is risky, it must always have a rational basis on which that level of risk is determined. This prevents the government’s decisions from being arbitrary, and from favoring one party or group over others. (There are other requirements as well.)

For example, at some point we decided that crowded buildings were too large a fire risk. The government decided to allow the fire department to regulate the maximum number of people that could occupy every room of every building. In order to prevent this from being arbitrary, the fire department must base their determination on the actual fire risk: the materials the building is made from, the rate at which fire can spread in those materials, the number and size of the exits from the building, etc. The purpose of the building doesn’t matter: a church with 10,000 square feet and fire doors gets exactly the same maximum occupancy as a store with 10,000 square feet and fire doors (all else being equal; a real store would probably get dinged for having a bunch of additional flammable material in it).

It doesn’t matter that some buildings are used for frivolous purposes like entertainment while other are used for serious business. The fire doesn’t care about that, so neither can the fire department. This protects everybody against corruption and abuse of authority. Suppose the Fire Marshall was a crazy Fundamentalist, and arbitrarily decided that your bar should have a maximum occupancy of 2? You’d be out of business, and quite angry. By the same token, suppose the Fire Marshall was anti–religion, and arbitrarily decided that your church should have a maximum occupancy of 2? Same result. The rational basis rule is intended to protect us all from oppression at the hands of our neighbors, even when we have differing ideologies.

A virus doesn’t take into account the importance of the building when it infects people, and therefore pandemic restrictions on occupancy cannot take that into account either.

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