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Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

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Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#431

I for one welcome this change. The whole university system has for decades been built on a house of straw and the ideologues of DIE are dismantling it bit by bit. What structures we build next will surely be interesting.

Accelerationism

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a multitude of groups doing that, but they're not equally dangerous now. The problem is that the hard right has control of the Republican Party. The hard left does not have control of the Democratic Party. If US democracy falls in the next few years, it's almost guaranteed to be because of the hard right.

I'm not surprised, but continually amazed that people actually and truly think this way; that there's only one insidious group that are the problem, and only they will be the cause of disaster. Take the blinders off, there's more at work here that petty tribalism.

Sometimes there is only one truly insidious group, and to suggest otherwise is the false balance fallacy. That group's supporters will think of themselves as just, and even see themselves as victims. It's always like that with authoritarian movements.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#433
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have laws for separation of church and state, they should be applied to this as any other. This is a religion. It's the same as any religious group trying to impose their morality and beliefs on everyone else. To be a good person use the correct words and correct ideas as defined by us, the good people. If you disagree you are a bad person. Sinful, evil. How can you disagree with the Holy Words, Diversity, Inclusi…

Like most religious analogies in this area, I completely agree with it as a framework but don't really follow the conclusions. If it's a religion, surely part of living in a secular society is allowing people to practice it freely, even if that means that some conferences (or professors, or schools) adopt explicit creeds. I do worry, because I think this particular religion is factually wrong in ways that matter a lo…

It would mean, however, that the state should not be explicitly backing the 'religion' in e.g. public universities, even though that's not the immediate issue at hand in the article.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#434
As the article suggests, these "diversity and inclusion" initiatives have negative effects when they become institutional mandates. And yet we can all agree that there is a strong moral argument in favor of ensuring that each profession is open to everyone of real talent. My sense of the right way to approach this is to encourage every hiring manager to remember their moral obligations, but without formalizing such moral concerns into mandates.

I wrote a long bit about this in "One on one meetings are underrated:"

When hiring, I rely heavily on recommendations from people I know, or at least know of. To use some Silicon Valley jargon, I rely on "social proof." If a good engineer with whom I’ve worked recommends some other engineer or project manager or product manager, that counts for a lot with me.

I recently tweeted this idea on Twitter and James Youngman responded, “It seems to me that this kind of approach is what perpetuates the domination of the industry by an in-group (who know each other, directly or indirectly) at the expense of outsiders, to the detriment of both diversity and fairness.”

That’s a valid concern. We all have a professional and ethical obligation to be sure that we hire a diverse workforce; that is, the workforce must be open to anyone who has real talent. In my experience, there is no contradiction between that obligation and a requirement that a candidate be recommended by someone we trust. Assuming you have friends and colleagues who understand their professional and ethical obligations the same way you do, they should be able to give recommendations on people they know or put you in touch with friends of theirs who can offer such recommendations. Within your extended social penumbra of friends, friends of friends, and friends of friends of friends, you should be able to find someone who can vouch for most of the candidates that you need to hire. You just need to put in the effort, chasing down those recommendations through extended chains of acquaintances.

This approach very much works when you are hiring novices who are straight out of school. It helps to stay in touch with friends and colleagues who are teaching or mentoring at schools or the software developer bootcamps. Back in 2018, when I needed some junior-level frontend software developers, I hired several women from the Grace Hopper program for women that is run by Fullstack Academy. In that case I spoke with some experienced friends of mine who had either taught at the school or volunteered as mentors. As such, they could point me to those who were the best of the graduating class and I ended up with an unusually excellent team of novices.

[I then tell a story from 2009, when I go to a job interview, and they give me a technical test: to find the problems in their code. And yet, they didn't know what they were doing, and their code was horrible. Here is the conclusion of that story:]

...Needless to say, I didn’t get the job, nor did I want the job. He was looking to hire software developers who would be willing to follow his idiosyncratic and unprofessional style. I wasn’t interested.

I tell this story when I’m being critical of certain kinds of coding tests, and hiring managers respond, “Well, that is an extreme and ridiculous example.” It is indeed extreme and ridiculous, therefore, it’s easy to see the problem. Yet, even when tests are less idiosyncratic than that one, they will still reflect the values, skills, and aesthetics of the person doing the hiring. How could they not? Anyone who hires someone for their team will want someone who is at least somewhat consonant with the style and goals of the team. Wanting that consonance is reasonable, up to a point. Certainly, when I hire, I’m looking for someone who either shares my aesthetics or is willing to learn my aesthetics. That is, I explicitly recognize that there are subjective factors that shape hiring decisions.

Whenever I say this, I get pushback from people who say some variation of, “This is why tech remains exclusive, with a dominant in-group that never changes, because the people with the power to hire only hire those who are just like them.”

I, however, would say the opposite is true. The only way to make the profession of software development (or the profession of marketing or operations or sales or law or any other profession) more diverse is to explicitly recognize that all hiring contains a subjective element, and that one of the goals of hiring must be the creation of a diverse workforce, open to anyone with real talent. Only after you’ve explicitly recognized that there are subjective factors that shape hiring can you explicitly move to build a diverse workforce. By contrast, the pretense of objective tests has too often served as a smokescreen behind which lurk forces that conserve the status quo.

If the moral urgency of this issue leaves you unmoved, consider the practical element: everything you need to know about a candidate you can learn from recommendations and by talking to the candidate. If you ask them direct questions, and you ask follow up questions until you are sure you know everything that you need to know, then you will discover what you need without wasting time on tests. This is faster for you, and it is faster for the candidate, and therefore this is both more fair and more efficient for everyone.

This is not to say that I never use tests. I use tests all the time. Not because they are objective, but for the opposite reason: they often reveal some of the subjective factors that are essential for making good hiring decisions. If I am interviewing a junior level software developer, and I give them a challenge that only a senior level software developer could handle, I’m not actually looking to see if this developer can do the work. I know they can’t. I am looking to see if they panic, or if they remain calm and ask me all of the questions that they should be asking me.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#436
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're talking about destroying freedom of association and expression in order to root out reprehensible people with the wrong values We all have a strong moral obligation to root out "reprehensible people with the wrong values." If you think otherwise then you don't understand what the word "reprehensible" means.

Fundamental attribution error. There are no reprehensible people, there are only reprehensible deeds.

I envy your innocence, but sadly, the world has many reprehensible people in it.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're talking about destroying freedom of association and expression in order to root out reprehensible people with the wrong values We all have a strong moral obligation to root out "reprehensible people with the wrong values." If you think otherwise then you don't understand what the word "reprehensible" means.

After you root out these reprehensible people, what do you suggest doing with them?

Shame them for their bad behavior.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#438
post #173

Free Speech for Me--But Not for Thee: How the American Left and Right Relentlessly Censor Each Other (1992) [1] is a good read on how we got to a point where our ability to communicate across ideologies appears to be broken in many ways. For example, in 1963 Yale disinvited George Wallace, who was popular in the deep south, as a speaker. As a result, observers were deprived of a chance to hear opposing speakers' argu…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#439
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a problem if someone with a big audience advocates for and does not use rational arguments, as long as that thing is relatively harmless. (Let's say Bono advocates for peace, or a local group wants a new playground because it would warm their hearts. Or a group wants lower taxes, or a different group wants to tax the rich more. Even this last one, while advocates discrimination, it's not against a disadvanta…

> It's not a problem if someone with a big audience advocates for and does not use rational arguments, as long as that thing is relatively harmless. (Let's say Bono advocates for peace [..] Q: Who gets to define "relatively harmless"? "Advocating for peace" sounds pretty harmless, yet if you dare to mention any specifics - at least this year - it seems supporting it is deemed anything but harmless. Before my time, bu…

Descriptively history, normatively society through whatever mechanisms it comes up with. (Eg. in the US it's done through an "by default everything is allowed, and SCOTUS can make exceptions" mechanism.)

I don't think there's anything wrong with advocating for peace, from a free speech aspect, especially if someone is sincere. (Even if someone is completely brainwashed by whatever propaganda. And even if peace itself is a super meaningless term. After all wouldn't a totalitarian world government bring peace? Etc, etc.)

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#440

>Last week the New York University (NYU) psychology professor announced that he would resign at the end of the year from the Society for Personality and Social Psychology, his primary professional association, because of _a newly adopted requirement that everybody presenting research at the group's conferences explain how their submission advances_ "equity, inclusion, and anti-racism goals." It was the sort of litmus…

Individuals that value liberty will chafe at "saluting" a politically ideology.
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