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All poverty is energy poverty

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431–440 of 466 posts

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#431
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are still arguing the extreme version of a position of the argument, when I was arguing for the less radical side. I am arguing for localism. Democratic governments that give more power to its people and their representatives in the lower spheres of power. People can (and should) vote with their feet, and communities can (and should) collaborate with each other.

Then nobody prevents you having what to want even today. This is the beauty of capitalism: it’s perfectly fine to have other forms of organizations inside it. There are communes and kibbutz you can join right now.

No, there aren't. I am not Amish nor Jew.

Anyway, that is besides the point. No one is arguing against "capitalism". The argument is against Globalism and Corporativism. Capitalism, by itself, is amoral. The problem is, e.g, Disney and the NBA kow-towing to the Chinese because of the "Chinese market".

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#432
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am amused by the optimism of these responses. Nobody is concerned that if we end up with cheap nuclear fusion that humanity won’t use a lot more of it? Would humans stop building resorts in deserts?

Deserts are a wonderful place for resorts, assuming it is man made desert (like the Sahara) and infinite energy to desalinate and recycle water in an ecologically sound way. We just aren't to that point yet.

I am completely a proponent of humanity using cheap energy to elevate our standard of living to ridiculous levels. I’m just wondering what we will do with the waste heat. I cannot believe that we will limit ourselves to current levels of consumption.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#433
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1800, almost everyone was destitute by current standards, even prosperous merchants. If you measure wealth by dollars or iPhone access, this tautologically true but it's not a good measure of how life was. A wealthy person had enough food, access to leisure, a large house with luxurious possessions and probably servants. Sure, health care might have been bad and they might have died of various epidemics. Their liv…

Then why did people migrate to where the industrial jobs were?

You know my comment said some people, wealthy people lived better in some ways than present day impoverished factory workers? Farm hands, Eastern European serfs and so-forth did not live better by any means.

As other have noted, the industrial revolution also got much of it's impetus from peasant being driven off the land they cultivated.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you produce airplanes and silicon chips exactly?

Why do you need an airplane in a local community? Also, silicon chips aren't exactly the type of thing that you constantly need to buy every single day nor are they expensive to ship. Using the same phone or laptop for years instead of buying a new one every single year is highly viable.

Your present local community relies on massive quantities of silicon chips and other specialized goods that are ultimately brought in by planes trains and automobiles which themselves depend on specialized goods.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#435
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can it survive against a larger-scale opponent that wants to take its resources, though? Without a friendly superpower enforcing peace with an extraordinarily powerful military, that is.

Switzerland managed to do it for centuries already.

Switzerland isn't by the prior analogy a park its a normal modern nation. It's a complete non sequitur

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#436
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always forget that it isn't a question of leaving American cities as-is and expecting everyone to give up cars. The solution starts with building walkable cities that have public transportation.

Public transit boosters usually understand that pedestrian friendly street design and higher density housing is also needed. The problem is NIMBYs who resist anything but single family house zoning. Not even duplexes are ok for these people.

I think trying to retrofit existing single family into urbanism is kind of a lost cause. Everything is built for it, and nothing is built for urban density and transit, at some point you might as well just stake a new city in the middle of nowhere (preferably off a major interstate and rail line that has water access) and build from scratch rather than having to bulldoze everything thats already there.

The Northeast US cities have the bones of urbanism still. Their grids were often laid before the car, so you have the narrow streets, housing without setbacks, capacity for mixed use and density to justify good transit infrastructure. The problem is outside New York the cities proper all depopulated - Baltimore and Philly peaked decades ago and have seen mostly population decline since mid last century. The problem is turning these places around requires a lot of investment to rebuild the decayed urbanism that is there and they both (the whole corridor) needs more transit that what it already has to support real urbanism growth when it starts up again.

These are places that have been systemically paracitized for a long time. Taxes are higher in Boston, Philly, NYC, Baltimore, etc than anywhere else in their respective states, and the actual cities are some of the only property tax revenue positive places anywhere - all that suburban sprawl is dependent on outside money to sustain all the roads and infrastructure in ways these cities are not. But that outside money often came from these cities, and we saw huge white flight last century as wealth fled to sprawling suburbs.

None of these places can really turn around the economic sackings they have endured on their own. Even NYC has huge budget problems supporting its metro. But good luck getting the broader fed to reinvest in cities in the 21st century... there are defense contractors pocketbooks to pad, companies to bailout, and techbros to give tax exemptions to.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland managed to do it for centuries already.

Switzerland isn't by the prior analogy a park its a normal modern nation. It's a complete non sequitur

It's a modern nation that had very mighty expansionist empires on their borders. It's also the only country in Western Europe that never intended or desired to join the EU.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland isn't by the prior analogy a park its a normal modern nation. It's a complete non sequitur

It's a modern nation that had very mighty expansionist empires on their borders. It's also the only country in Western Europe that never intended or desired to join the EU.

Yes but lest we entirely lose track of the thread its not an isolationist nation that foregoes the fruits of globalism or corporatism its merely been willing to do business with everyone including letting nazis bank the gold literally yanked from the mouths of murdered jews.

It's neutrality even in the face of abject evil has nothing whatsoever to do with any topic being discussed.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#439
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland managed to do it for centuries already.

Switzerland's wealth is built on plunder and money laundering. That's not a model we should want to replicate anywhere else. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/reading...

Thats a primitive way to look at things, and incorrect on so many levels it would take few pages to list them all. To sum it up - their wealth is based on precise high quality manufacturing, and secondly on tourism. Banking is not even up there in top revenues for state.

Or, to put it in similar fashion - the wealth of US is based on plunder. The wealth of all western Europe is based on centuries of plunder.

See, the way you frame your posts leads down the conflict immediately. I've checked some of your posts, and kudos to consistency - you are not interested in rational discussion, just consistent trolling and largely baseless conflict.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#440
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public transit boosters usually understand that pedestrian friendly street design and higher density housing is also needed. The problem is NIMBYs who resist anything but single family house zoning. Not even duplexes are ok for these people.

I think trying to retrofit existing single family into urbanism is kind of a lost cause. Everything is built for it, and nothing is built for urban density and transit, at some point you might as well just stake a new city in the middle of nowhere (preferably off a major interstate and rail line that has water access) and build from scratch rather than having to bulldoze everything thats already there. The Northeast…

100%. These things have not happened by accident or in a vacuum.
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