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Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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431–440 of 536 posts

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#431

EE spent so many years making sure everyone knew it's impossibly hard, the professors eat their young, etc. I've seen this in other professions where the incumbents desperately want to impose, in actuality, the uphill-both-ways life story they believe they endured. And then they are shocked when the young peace out. The military, and their insanely rigorous special warfare training. The medical profession in general.…

This is definitely part of it. The entry level courses we took in electrical engineering were insanely hard, and pretty worthless for developing any real engineering skills. It was mostly felt like it was selecting for people who were really good at math puzzles. It just felt like they were trying to scare people away.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit margin. It's all profit margin. Software is reliably >25%, where physical manufacturing is in the single digits.

You might want to look at the margins of Intel, Nvidia, Cisco, Juniper, Arista, ...

[deleted]

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#433
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. I went to school for EE, but was interested in Computer Science. There was a stigma to switching from EE to CS as taking an easier course because you couldn't hack it in EE. It was seen as a failure or a defeat. I toughed it out and graduated with an electrical engineering degree, but now I'm a programmer anyway. Wish I had just switched once I realized I liked CS more and saved a bunch of time.

I also went to school for EE, but after a summer job doing SW, I switched to CS when I got back in the fall. I think CS (a good program) teaches you fundamentally how Systems work, independent of the substrate. EE is actually rather trivial compared to the complexity of big systems. EEs just learn altium, read some data sheets, and poof, out pop the circuits. Throw it in LT spice if you think it'll impress the boss.…

"Just learn some Altium?" Really? It's like saying, just learn some python and visual code and off you to to a 400k FAANG job

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree and I'm one of those responding similarly in similar contexts. However, thinking about it, I think there may be a valve here that prevents this from happening: If costs get too high Asian companies win, setting an upper bound. So it may show up in more outsourcing and imports rather than higher pay. I have not completely thought this through, so I'm posting it as a condensation nucleus for discussio…

> If costs get too high Asian companies win Wouldn't this apply to software companies as well? Yet we see higher pay, rather than imports/outsourcing.

There's more software engineering companies, than "hard" engineering companies.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#435
I don't know the answer to their puzzle. I really don't and I feel like I'm hurting The Industry and those in it because of that.

I'm a savage software engineer with a mutt academic pedigree, even though I'm sidling closer to the civilized EE side. But I really don't know if that's the right choice, ya know?

So, I'll spiral into further existential dread because I can't coordinate these choices with others.

"On the Brink of Extinction", That's some grim storytelling right there...

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#436
I attended a top notch school for EE, where I specialized in optics and photonics. After witnessing one of our top lab graduates bag a 100k photonics job, I realized I had to switch, so I transferred into ML where the math was significantly easier but the pay was far better.

Now all I do is tune hyper parameters, but man I miss all the wild mind-blowing physics that photonics had to offer.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#437
The main issue with working as an EE is that you can’t get useful experience without working in the industry and picking up all sorts of tacit knowledge that one can grab only by working. This creates a huge gate keeping effect. Contrast that with SW where so much of the sausage making is accessible in the form of open source projects.

Another difficulty is that with the offshoring of so much EE work to Taiwan etc, many US companies only want to hire senior EEs who can direct projects overseas. This unfortunately kills of paths of growth for junior EEs in the US.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure that bubble is long for this world. Scarcity called, it said "remember me? Ive been on vacation to everywhere but the west, now I'm back!". What makes shrooms better than coke? Never tried either one, probably not stable enough to risk it, so curious what your valuation criteria are.

not the person you're responding to, but I suspect it would be due to life outcomes of both - mushrooms have been shown to help people resolve past trauma and change their habits for the better, whereas cocaine tends to be habit forming and cokeheads are generally pretty unhappy people.

Yep that’s pretty much what I meant, plus that psychedelics in general have wider dimensions while cocaine is sort of a dumb drug.

Not judging, just saying.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#439

I will just add to the chorus here: * I graduated as a Computer Engineer. * Worked as EE/EEE entire career (currently almost 14 years). * Half of my class of EEs and CEs went into other careers immediately after graduation because money was better. * 10 years later my best conservative estimate (based on sampling from friends from my year) is that at least another quarter has left because money. * I have mainly worke…

I don’t understand how the market dynamics work here. As a software engineer, I feel like the market is flooded with workers, and that it is an easy job. I have no idea how we’ve managed to sustain these salaries for so long. At some point, I keep expecting a correction in salaries simply due to supply / demand. I also keep thinking, surely other industries will start paying more and treating folks better, so they ca…

A single piece of software can have an unlimited number of paying or ad-supported customers. Hardware usually can’t do that, and has significantly higher costs (manufacturing) per customer. Thus software engineers generally can generate significantly more profit than hardware engineers.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#440
In addition to agreeing with the general sentiments expressed here about software paying more, there is a lot more to it. Here are a few things that probably aren't getting enough attention. I love chip design, but I am totally disillusioned with the engineering side of the business. I am actively trying to get away from it, whether it is move to the business side or management or even switch into software.

- It is a job, not a career. Because the industry is so consolidated and highly specialized, there are actually very few jobs available. This is why I believe it pays so much less than software. Don't like the pay, the management, your coworkers, the career advancement? Where are you going to go? There are only a couple of options which may or may not be hiring for your specialty and you can only hop around so much since there are few employers. Having tons of jobs to choose from isn't just about getting more pay, it is another form of job security and freedom. This industry doesn't have that.

- I get the whole argument that software is more capital efficient and so more money can be spent on salaries, and it may be part of the reason, but not the majority. Many of these hardware companies are quite profitable. They don't pay more because there are no market pressures forcing them to. I don't expect this to change even with a looming talent shortage. I know someone with a PhD, probably ~20-25 years of experience, and has spent their entire career in a single area which gives them deep domain knowledge and is making slightly more than what an L4 SWE(4-8 years experience with a Bachelor's Degree?) at Google(assuming I the information I have seen on Google pay grades are accurate). This is total comp by the way and even adjusting further for geo differences doesn't change the comparison much. Yet this is considered pretty good for our field. It is almost a sense of entitlement on the part of the semiconductor industry that they shouldn't have to compete on pay. On a couple occasions long ago I heard from official HR communications and high level management at Intel say something to the effect of being proud about paying "around industry average". Weird how they don't want average employees or average work/life balance though.

- Salaries don't appear to have been influenced much by Google/Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft getting into the business. Disclaimer: I haven't looked deeply into this. Are their teams to small to make a difference in the labor market? Are they paying chip industry rates instead of software rates? Are the traditional semiconductor companies just ignoring it and refusing to match their pay?

- The industry like many others does not want to spend money to train people, so they only want unicorn candidates. Yet it is not enough to simply be an RTL designer, or a verification engineer, or a physical engineer, they usually want someone with the exact skills. e.g. USB experience, PCIE experience, power experience, etc. Things like tuition reimbursement are mostly a myth. It certainly was at Intel despite their claims of $50k for tuition reimbursement. The funds came out of the local discretionary budgets so managers never wanted to approve it because discretionary budget is also the same budget that pays for many other things like business travel and conferences. Discretionary was also the first thing to get hit in belt-tightening situations and was a good way to look good to upper management if a site manager wasn't using their full discretionary budget. Since tuition reimbursement is a several year commitment once approved, it couldn't be cut as easily once started.

- Managers are incentivized to promote execution over learning/growth or innovation due to schedule pressures and frequent hiring freezes. For the same reasons, managers are also incentivized to block transfers because they don't benefit from it, even if there are rules to prohibit this behavior. Combined with wanting unicorn candidates that will accept low pay, it is no surprise that it is getting hard to find employees. Yet if you outlive your usefulness or burnout they will have no problems laying people off and looking for a new unicorn candidate rather than retraining existing employees despite all the sacrifices they made. I saw this happen first hand. Layoffs one week, 2 new job reqs the next week for RTL jobs which are hard to get. Also since they were "silver bullet" hires to fulfill "critical" needs(false!) no internal candidates from places like verification would be acceptable. So not only did they not try to save anyone from layoffs, they also basically said no one inside the group was worth investing in either. Classy.

- Instead of a gradual talent pipeline, I think the industry appears to have had waves of talent progression. This leads to situations where if you are between waves, you will have a group ahead of you that is fairly young but in high level positions and which puts a real limit on how far you can advance regardless of how good you are because positions are just solidified. When I graduated most of the really senior engineers were from their mid 30s through their mid 40s. Grade level *distributions* get "maxed-out" as they say. Because there are few alternatives and people stay in jobs far longer than average, it becomes stagnant. People leave the companies or leave the industry altogether. When the current cohort that is now in their 50s starts to retire, there might not be a new wave to replace them.

- Chip design is far more demanding than software engineering because you have to get it 98,99% right the first time you build it or you get a brick back from the fab instead of a working chip. Simulations are slow, and post-silicon ability to debug while impressive, is very limited compared to pre-silicon simulations. Unless it can be fixed in firmware, you are stuck until the next batch of samples gets made. If you "go fast and break things", you are going to fail and get fired. Schedule pressures are constant: you need product on time for back-to-school, or Christmas, or competitive threats. Sometimes the schedule pressures are artificially created by lazy management that want to create a sense of urgency. Pushing to tapeout can be grueling because you don't want to miss your fab window by being late. During power-on people are expected to work in shifts 24-7. Power on can last 2-6 weeks on early samples and be in foreign countries. This grates on people. When you look at software which has fewer schedule pressures, is less difficult to make, makes more money, and has more employers to choose from, why would anyone want to do this if they possess the skills and intelligence necessary to do software. Even if you don't work for FAANG salaries you can probably get paid the same as the chip industry and have a better life and better job security and career options.

- There is nothing to get excited about and inspire kids to go into the profession. The startup space is minimal so no cool new ideas or riches to be had there. When I was in high school, hardware was the show, the performance improvements were huge with every generation. There was tons of coverage of new CPUs and GPUs talking about their architectures. Now there is little coverage. Between companies trying to be like Apple and minimize the importance of hardware and the chip companies releasing less info on their chip designs as performance gains get smaller it relegates hardware to being an after thought.

- Lastly, I don't know if this has changed with the addition of Google/Facebook/Amazon/etc making chips, but around the time when I got out of college, the total number of EE jobs was actually declining in the US. This pours cold water on the talent shortage narrative that had been used for many years falsely. If jobs are going down, you should have an excess of workers unless they are choosing to retire or leave the industry. It also acts as a discouragement for people to join or stay in the field. Who wants to be in a shrinking industry that is already highly consolidated?

The EE/ECE industry has no one to blame but themselves for the looming talent shortage.

That was a lot to write in a short time and I didn't do a ton of proofreading, so hopefully there aren't too many sentence fragments or typos.

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